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Wilderness Bill Clears First Hurdle in Congress

Dec 19, 2017
by Vernon Felton  
NODES Searching for Corridors of Flow
Photo by Sven Martin

A week ago I wrote that IMBA, the International Mountain Bicycling Association, had formally lodged testimony opposing H.R. 1349, a bill (in Congress) that would remove the blanket ban on bikes in Wilderness areas within the United States. IMBA's philosphical opposition wasn't entirely surprising--they have long insisted that outright opposing the ban on bikes is unproductive. IMBA's move to actually submit congressional testimony opposing the bill, well, that did surprise a lot of people since IMBA issued a press release more than a year ago, stating that they wouldn't interfere with the Sustainable Trail Coalition's (STC) effort to get this bill introduced and passed through Congress. If you are wondering what all this Wilderness talk is about, check out this primer.

When news of IMBA's testimony went public, feces hit the fan in many corners of the Internet. We are in the process of obtaining interview time with both STC and IMBA, whose representatives have been in the nation's capitol of late. In the meantime, it's worth noting two things:

First, The House Natural Resources Committee passed H.R. 1349 in a vote of 22 to 18. The bill must now move to the floor of the House of Representatives.

Second, the New England Mountain Bike Association and the San Diego Mountain Biking Association have both created a petition demanding that IMBA not lobby against mountain biking in Wilderness areas. I am making no assumptions about your position on the matter, but if you do feel bikes belong in Wilderness areas, then GO HERE TO SIGN THE PETITION.

Petition to IMBA
Screenshot of the petition in question

If you are content with IMBA's position, then, well, just keep on keeping on.

In the near future, we'll be bringing you interviews with leadership on both the IMBA and STC side of this particular coin. Stay tuned.

Author Info:
vernonfelton avatar

Member since Apr 11, 2014
202 articles

285 Comments
  • 218 3
 What's funny is both sides think this is some sort of proxy debate. Establishment conservationists think bikes are the vanguard and that what follows is condos, monster trucks and NASCAR. Cyclists think wilderness study area expansion is coming to wipe out trails across the US (this is actually happening). Both sides are afraid of each other and don't believe the other side consists of reasonable conservationists.

Meanwhile the conservation infighting will only benefit the destruction of wilderness protection. Both sides need to sit down, talk, and give ground. Then present a unified front.

Also, looks like a session and press fit bb sucks.
  • 75 1
 "Also, looks like a session and press fit bb sucks." --- seems legit.
  • 14 2
 @Mtmw sorry you’re out. Besides looks like a session and press fit bb you forgot wheelsize to support your argument.
  • 69 2
 "Meanwhile the conservation infighting will only benefit the destruction of wilderness protection. Both sides need to sit down, talk, and give ground. Then present a unified front."

This cannot be overstated. Hikers, equestrians, mountain bikers, hunters, fishers - all have to work together.
  • 9 10
 @GeorgeHayduke: Please tell me when you find a reasonable way to work together with hunters. Mountain bikers and hunters go together like water and oil around here. Or better like gas and fire ...
  • 41 3
 @Gamsjaga: Here in the Pacific NW, we are pretty friendly with those hunting. Often, we are the same people.

Every hunting group I've come while riding across has always been friendly. The last was descending a trail in Eastern Washington this fall. We asked where they were heading (opposite directions from us) and they asked us if we'd had seen any three pointers.
  • 25 3
 @Gamsjaga: your comment is filling the ocean with carbon and should be machined from a solid aluminum block as God intended.
  • 2 1
 like target and prey you mean
  • 9 1
 @Gamsjaga: Not like that here at all. We mostly get along quite well. But then again, hunters like to use fat bikes in areas where quads/trucks are illegal and it's a 2 day hike to get into/out of some areas. The deer hunters here in town like it when we bike, it gets the animals moving during the day...
  • 10 0
 @boxxerace: Unfortunately even as a hunter and mountain biker I have a really hard time to explain to either party that there is something beyond their little universe. In Germany it is pretty much impossible to etsblish a real dialogue between logging/hunting and biking interests.
  • 116 0
 I'd sign a petition against that cockpit setup in the photo.
  • 10 0
 @boxxerace: this. It requires an understanding that at a fundamental level, we all want the same thing, access to the outdoors. We then need to all learn that just because we don’t agree with how someone uses the land, as long as they are not damaging it, it should be allowed. There are hunters that will always think all bikers are twig eating dirty hippies and bikers that will always think that hunters are sadist killers. However, the majority of both can find common ground and compromise. It might requires something as radical as sharing, during hunting season odd days for one group, even for another. Acess 50% of the time is better than no access.
  • 3 0
 @carym: Yes but even a little more common sense on both sides would already help a lot.
  • 16 0
 This is the real problem. The hikers and sierra club, et. al haven't embraced mountain biking and have excluded them. If they worked with them instead of fighting them, perhaps I would be more sympathetic to their cause. At the same time, I don't want to trash the environment and want to keep places wild. If the hikers and sierra club didn't just completely keep screwing us, I would definitely fall more on that side. As it stands, I have only heard hyperbole from them on this issue and want more access since we have had so much access taken away these past few years.
  • 3 0
 @Dmsullivan2: Come on man some people like to be able to give themselves a thumb bump while riding. It took me a second to figure out there were shifters on both sides that just looks weird as hell to me.
  • 13 0
 @carym: Absolutely. I don't buy into the idea that if I'm not interested in a given activity then it should be illegal and banned. I might not understand the joy of riding a horse up a trail, or walking back down a mountain but do I want to block or stop access to equestrians and hikers, of course not!

Do I want to stop Randonee Skiers from skiing in the wilderness with their mechanical fritschi bindings, skins and fat skis? Nope!

We should have empathy on other human powered (or horse, if you insist) activities in the wilderness and beyond. I bike and guess what, I also mountain climb, hike, rock climb and backcountry ski just like most of you.
  • 7 2
 @boxxerace: All good till you end up like that girl in New Hampshire, she will be ok thankfully, but she will never feel safe again.

The article said the Hunter and I use the word loosely was shooting at a deer and shot the girl by mistake, sorry as a hunter you know that does not happen. The hunter got buck fever and shot before he knew what he was shooting at.
I agree 99% of hunters are safe reasonable people but, I will never ever ride in the woods in an area with hunting, like having an accident with a bike and a car the bike always looses.
  • 6 4
 @Gamsjaga: That's because Germany and Austria are full of crusty old bastards.
  • 3 0
 @lake-st: I forgot about that! One of my friends always rides with a bear bell. Probably a good idea in hunting season to have one.

Helps to also have loud and obnoxious riding buddies with you, hootin and hollering.
  • 2 1
 @Gamsjaga: Mtb riders can get shot by hunters here in the US. It’s not intentional on the part of the hunters as far as I know. The problem is they open up the trails to mtbers and the same woods to hunters at the same time. The bike rider then becomes a moving object in the forest. Not to mention stray bullets etc. I always wear bright gear and have a loud hub, but still. It’s bad land management is all.
  • 2 0
 @GeorgeHayduke: can we work together for separate single user group trails? cause thats what i want
  • 6 4
 @wiscobiker: under this administration? Pick your battles...
  • 2 2
 @GeorgeHayduke: And OHV groups. They (We) arent that bad.
  • 5 0
 Ill miss IMBA. -jk
  • 4 0
 @owlie: Absolutely - OHV is important in the larger conversation. Not in the wilderness debate though.
  • 6 0
 @boxxerace: I surprised a guy behind Roslyn one day on a wheeler. Super legit and said he “used to be stupid on two wheels” in his younger days. I said sorry if I spoiled your elk out buddy. His response was classic, “shit, I knew I wasn’t gonna see anything today, but my wife ain’t out here, have fun”. All good folks in the PNW
  • 5 0
 @fattyheadshok: So true. There isn’t a hunter that wants to accidently shoot a person, but having both in the same area at the same time is a recipie for accidents. As good hunters know, you don’t shoot at anything you cannot clearly identify. Unfortunately a few idiots violate that cardinal rule. Good land use policy figures out a way to minimize the risks brought on by the biggest idiots in any group. Whether it is alternate day use during season, clearly delineated areas (virtually impossible in wilderness areas) or some other solution, I don’t know. That said, I would much rather join in with the hunting community and not using the land during hunting season for biking than to see us fight each other and both lose out on any access.

For what it is worth, I am a gun owner, but not a hunter (excepting varmit), but have friends that are avid hunters as well as those that think it is a terible thing.
  • 9 2
 This bill getting passed WILL create the necessary conversation locally. Currently there is NO option for local government and community's to vote or discuss wilderness use, so no point in conversation. And as stated, the study areas getting turned into wilderness has taken trails away from the riding community, and most likely will continue to do so. This bill atleast gives people the option to vote on whether or not they can return to using trails that had been established for bikes.
For a mountain biking association, IMBA sure fights hard against mountain biking...
#f*ckIMBA
  • 7 0
 @pinhead907: Don't forget, E-bike sucks!
  • 5 0
 @GeorgeHayduke: that's easy to say, but the problem is the hikers and equestrian are the ones actively fighting any "new" access.
  • 4 1
 @swartzie: Yup! There are always exceptions, but most of those are the people who never stray from the city. Don't get me wrong, plenty of great people in Seattle / Bellevue. But yeah. If you are hunting where people are hiking or riding bikes, good luck to you. And often, unwise. My friends that hunt do so in areas nothing else is going on besides maybe logging.

I've spent some time hiking through hills with friends prior to when they are allowed to hunt, looking for animal paths, etc. Saw and spooked a beautiful three point buck in the Teanaway, just on the backside of Roslyn last fall. I appreciate hunting and nearly all hunters use all of the animals meat. However, I personally generally prefer to enjoy the animals living, despite the fact that I buy steak from the store and have someone else do the killing and prep work most often. There is no thrill in killing an animal, just the challenge of the hunt and the thankfulness for what the animal provides to us.
  • 1 0
 @mountainyj: Where do you live Mountain YJ?
  • 8 0
 @GeorgeHayduke: Hayduke lives!

The problem is that IMBA has been trying to negotiate with these horsemen and wilderness advocates for decades. They would rather die than give an inch to mountain bikers.
  • 2 0
 @boxxerace: Jackson, WY
  • 3 1
 @slowtime: Lumping horseman and wilderness advocates into a collective they is as productive as calling us all IMBA supporters.
  • 7 10
 @slowtime: the problem is the thirst for power and ownership among all parties, typical for the culture of your country. Majority of anti E-bikes comments here sound as if MTBers were the righteous wardens of wilderness. Bless you though, I wish I wasn’t raised to be an exemplary factory worker Wink
  • 11 7
 @iamalexm:
The Sierra Club is and has always been the enemies of fun.
All you need to do is look at who supports them(Feinstein, Boxxer, Waxman to name a few).
I remember 8 or 9 years ago, those three got together to BAN kid's motorcycles, because of the 'risk' of lead poisoning. Nevermind that NO kid had EVER been poisoned from the lead 'content' in ANY motorcycle, they went ahead and did it anyway. I owned a small motorcycle franchise at the time, and I remember all of a sudden, one day the manufacturer called and said 'you can't sell ANY kid's motorcycles, quads, or parts 'til further notice',
I can't remember if it was the DOT, EPA, or who, but one(or more) federal institutions had to get involved to stay the execution(they couldn't 'undue' what those a*sholes had already done).
In any event, if you enjoy outdoor activities of ANY kind, The Sierra Club is basically your mortal enemy
  • 3 14
flag ryanbpoquette (Dec 20, 2017 at 2:58) (Below Threshold)
 @boxxerace: Beleive it or not but there actually might come a day sometime in the far or near future where someone might actually want to find an area thats considered wilderness and maybe just maybe they can gain something from just the thought and sight of nothing but that wilderness and the peace of it all. And your short sighted selfish desires would only seek to ruin that , you think you are being logical but youre just a republican. Drill baby drill, am i right?
  • 2 5
 @WAKIdesigns: Thanks wiki for the truth
  • 3 3
 @Gamsjaga: I am a avid bowhunter , trailbuilder, biker, surfer and fisherman. So you can shut your piehole
  • 5 7
 @jefflong: what he says is perfectly reasonable and posting your merits in this instance just make look like you spend too little time with other humans. Every single peer group of people considers themselves greatest and bestest, and will work with their own best interest in mind, considering others only if they realize that confrontation is inevitable and escalation can cause too much damage. If some group realizes that confrontation may benefit them, for instance they have power or political leverage they may engage in fight as an opportunity to get rid of a “pest”. It’s like a law of thermodynamics. Add culture element where everyone is told from the youngest that everything is for grabs and everyone’s a winnerand you have parties constantly willing to test their muscles. So sorry, I see little hope for old dogs like Sierra Club to be taught to sit and listen while your state officials surely perversely lick their lips from the sweet taste of executive power. In Europe authorities can post a ban for entering wilderness for certain groups of users, but they can’t really execute it since they have too little Police force available to control whether such kind of law is respected. Sure, a ban makes you feel unwelcome, but you can still take a moto and ride in national reserve from time to time and nobody will catch you... and even if they do, the fines are ridiculously low. In US though... my impression is that your law enforcement system is much more effective, for good and bad.
  • 2 0
 @iamalexm: You are exactly right! It would be great to have a unified front, but the sierra club and others have alienated themselves, and removed us from the equation in the 80's when they had the bill revised...
  • 2 0
 @Gamsjaga: In New Mexico anyway, there seem to be plenty of mountain bikers who are also hunters. No, I'm not talking about "cougar" hunters at the pub. Not sure why everyone always assumes that mountain bikers only mountain bike on our public land.
  • 1 0
 @Mtmw "Meanwhile the conservation infighting will only benefit the destruction of wilderness protection"

Hmmmm, almost as if this was the purpose all along.
  • 5 1
 @Gamsjaga: You should come to northern BC where small town MTB groups regularly work with hunters and First Nations peoples to protect the land we all love and use.
  • 3 0
 @Gamsjaga: Dude you are clueless. All any group wants in more access. If you do your research, Hunting in the United States generates more money for animals and keeping public land public then all other uses combined.

As a hunter and a mountain biker I want access for both.
  • 6 0
 @ryanbpoquette: No and no. And we are talking experiencing exactly what you describe and how important and valuable that is and how it is selfish to outright exclude bicyclists from trails used by those who walk, ride horses and ski on.

Don't you think you'd be willing to share five or ten trails in the wilderness? Currently there's zero. Who's being selfish here?
  • 5 2
 @WAKIdesigns: You don't live here and you don't seem to know what your talking about.
  • 2 7
flag WAKIdesigns (Dec 20, 2017 at 8:56) (Below Threshold)
 @Gregorysmithj1: i want to learn. The fundamental question, why can’t you just go out and ride anywhere you want? What are the consequences?
  • 5 0
 @manchvegas: And, unfortunately, they continue to alienate and not embrace. I live in the PacNW and the Sierra Club/hiker clubs in general don't work with us, they actively work against us. We are not motorcycles, yet I often hear from them that we are the same things - it is completely ridiculous. Also, I want the hundreds of miles of trails back they took away for no good reason in the past 5-10 years. The trails were not being damaged by bikes and were hardly ridden. This is just fear mongering more than anything.
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns: You are right i spend a lot of time alone in the woods/water. Just the way I like it. No drama or politics
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns:
You can't ride a bicycle in a designated "Wilderness Area" in the US because that is the way the regulations were written. Note that there is a huge difference between a statute and a regulation, with Federal Statutes passed by elected representatives and signed into law by the POTUS, while the CFRs are written by agency employees and are supposed to implement the details.

The following link will give you an idea of what the consequences will be:
www.wilderness.net/toolboxes/documents/ranger/DNF_WR%20CFRs.pdf

The maximum would be a $5,000 fine and / or up to 1 year in jail.

The reasons given are:

1) wilderness is meant to be a place apart from the modern world so only traditional uses and tools are appropriate
2) to protect sensitive areas from damage
3) to provide for spiritual enhancement either from the solitude provided to visitors or for people just knowing that they exist.

Then they ban wheeled carts, which have been around for a long time and reduce damage to sensitive areas, but allow shoes, skis and canoes of modern design made from modern materials. Go figure.
  • 3 5
 @Dangerous-Dan: thank you for your information but that is not what I was asking about, what I meant. What I was interested in was: what are the chances of getting caught riding a bike in an area on the territory of USA where it is prohibited to do so.

I can literally take a motorbike on Saturday morning and ride straight into a Natural Reserve here in Sweden, I will meet a few hikers, ride out and nobody will do anything to me. They will shout at me, shame me, call me a killer of nature, but a chance a Police Car will be waiting at the entrance to the park, is close to zero. And I am speaking about an area close to a city center. As long as I don't do it on a regular basis, don't leave a truck on a parking lot, have no license plates on the motorbike, I am virtually untouchable. Same in Poland. With a certain dosage of bad luck, one of the people I meet on trail can call Police and they may send a helicopter to track me and give directions to the Police cars. However long story short, most bans here are impossible to execute, they just make you feel bad for breaking them. And nobody will give much damn about bicycles or e-bikes.

In Poland in Tatry National Park it is forbidden to ride bikes and there are only few entries to the woods. So you may get caught mountain biking there. But people still do it outside of tourist season. From time to time I ride in areas banned for bicycles. I don't wear a T-shoirt stating this though...

As to your "go figure", well I don't condone it, but I find it perfectly understandable how a certain group of people got into places allowing them to put themselves in sweet spots and remove the competition. Calling upon a higher virtue and looking for an enemy is a rather old political move...
  • 2 1
 @WAKIdesigns: cool story bro.
  • 1 1
 @jefflong: Wow I‘m impressed. Next time read carefully before getting personal. I stated that I am a hunter myself (and also a fisherman by the way) and even that doesn‘t help when I trying to discuss access/trail use with other hunters.
@WAKIdesigns thanks, I couldn‘t have said it better.
  • 1 0
 @Rigidjunkie: 1-2-3-4 I declare thumb war
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns:

I have no idea how likely you would be to get nicked. When I lived in Oregon, there were miles of trails on land owned by logging companies adjacent to my property which were a lot more enjoyable to ride than the wilderness area trails , so I never bothered.

There was a single officer, paid for by the lumber industry, who patrolled the private forest lands looking for things like Meth labs, Cannabis grows, illegal dump sites, and misuse of the roads and trails.

If you went out without being registered with the lumber company which owned the land you were riding on, you would stand a pretty good chance of being caught and sent off until you were registered. If they caught you again, you would probably be given a citation for trespassing.

Unless you had a motocross bike with no license plate and lived out in the woods. The sheriff in a truck can't chase you down. They relied on checking license plates against lumber company records. No plate, no tracking.

I have hiked and skied a lot in Wilderness Areas in Oregon. Hiking, you are fairly likely to meet a Ranger in the more heavily used areas. Get a few miles beyond the heavily used areas, and they are very rare. Once there are a couple feet of snow on the ground, they used to go away for the season. I no longer live there, so my experience is a few years out of date.

If you were seen on a bicycle they would probably have someone watch the parking areas, and you would get a $300 ticket. If you were in one of the more desolate areas and did not enter from a developed parking area, I am guessing that you would get away with it. I know of a recent incident where someone was photographed carving their initials in a railing at a popular area, and the Forest Service actually tracked them down out of state and gave them a citation.

I have met some people on Snow Machines deep in the Three Sisters Wilderness. They had maps which were out of date and showed the area as being outside the Wilderness. I didn't report them. I mean, really? I was the only other person in the area, and we were a good 10 miles in from the parking area. If I had reported them, they would probably all have received one of those lovely $300 tickets.
  • 1 0
 @DJ-24:

i think one of the words used to describe people like that is "hidebound".
  • 1 2
 @Dangerous-Dan: then if you are living in a rather standard MTB ecosystem where MTBers pretend they obey the rules and rule makers/ executors pretend they don't know that trails are ridden by bikes (occasionally som either unfortunate or particularly stupid bloke gets caught) then what is this whole E-bike nazism in US about?
  • 1 1
 @WAKIdesigns You assumptions of mtb access and mountain culture in the US is so far from reality. I have never known anyone to take a bike or motorbike into a banned area on purpose we don't work that way here. I would never disobey my laws it looks bad on EVERY CYCLIST. Bikes were banned on so much trails in the 80es the only way we have gotten any trails that did not already allow motorcyclists is by respecting the laws no matter if we agree with them. There is millions spent every year to kick bikes off all non-motorized trails in the states. This is a constant battle. The silly argument you are playing "ride in wilderness no one will catch you" really sucks and is a horrible idea. If I saw you riding where bikes were not allowed I would as a cyclist tell you to leave and then call the cops. This highlighted respect for laws is because this is the only way we got to ride on non-motorized trails to begin with. Now with the ebike crap you are threatening the trails we already got access to by saying ebikes can go on non-motorized bikes. THIS IS NOT ABOUT STRAVA or YOU AREN'T "EARNING IT". We aren't "NAZIS" we are trying to protect the trails we already have! I am totally fine with ebikes on trails but I refuse to give what little lobby power I have a cyclists and donor to be funded for another problematic hobby to get access to trails, if they want access they fight if for themselves not piggy backing on mtb advocacy. Your silly argument of "just break the law whatever" just deepens the divide between hikers and cyclists. Look into the amount of money that goes into keeping bikes off trails here, look into the history and politics or i guess you continue to make silly uneducated posts that cause us more issues.
  • 1 1
 @Gregorysmithj1: what you just wrote falls exactly into my perceived picture, I simply failed to put it into words, or you failed to interpret what I wrote, or everything in between. The true respect is due only to a power that can punish you for your misbehavior. Be it a force of nature or a leviathan. Everything else is no more than a play of appearances among the members of a peer group, trying to establish a gradation of hierarchy. The reason some feel free to break a convention is only due to the fact that vast majority obeys it. At least as long as they are aware of existence od convention and people willing to defend it. So no, sorry, you will not squeeze a tiny bit of respect from me, for authority that on one hand claims to be protecting cheesy part of nature that I love, and at the same time allows the butchers to slaughter it. Same authority that allows hundreds of thousands of clueless and self unaware to hike into wilderness while they forbid me to take a bike in it, climb where I want and set up a tent where I want. Nature is a site of recreation, authorities disallow it to happen. They let you in like to a museum without allowing to interact with it. Face what nature really is. The mortal danger. I don’t ride into natural reserves, because I don’t like meeting these people. And many trails in National Parks in Europe simply suck for riding, since they are built for walking. And most areas open for biking provide more than good nature experience with good trails. Here’s to reality, more often than not, a pompateous ideology is unnecessary. In many places in Europe we just learned to get along with each other and weird ideas of some individuals. I feel sorry for you guys.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: long winded pretentiousness....
  • 1 2
 @Gregorysmithj1: I am aware of this sounding pretentious, but I don’t consider myself an outdoor person. I am an office city rat. I am aware of my mortality in confrontation with nature, like if I were to survive for a week in the wilderness. I have no delusions, I wouldn’t. Hence I don’t treat it as a pet or a museum. Also my awareness of human psychology and alternate states of human mind allow me to not go transcendental and wet myself spiritually when I am out there. Anyways, I’d love to see US, Colorado, Oregon, Utah. I hope I will at some point. I won’t be bummed though if I won’t be able to ride my bike there.
  • 2 2
 @iamalexm: Saying hikers and the Sierra Club are not cooperating by embracing mountain biking is like saying that Liberals are not cooperating with Conservatives because they don't embrace the business focused drive to change society. They are mutually exclusive.
I am a mountain biker AND a long distance backpacker. I believe that Wilderness areas were named and set aside to do one thing and one thing only: to preserve their wild nature so that future generations can see the wildness that our generation has. Wheeled vehicles and powered vehicles are prohibited in Wilderness areas because they fundamentally change the environment to a much greater degree than foot traffic.
Look at how much maintenance is required to keep established, designed MTB trails from degenerating into rutted, muddy messes. How do you propose to do that kind of maintenance on wild places which have been damaged by knobby tires? The answer of course is that it will not be done at all.
Why can't mountain bikers be satisfied with the access they have to developed trails and not push to damage pristine, sensitive wild areas?
  • 2 0
 @iamalexm : And Equines do far more damage than wheels and feet. Yet Sierra club couldnt even start to fight against them, you would lose your ass. Wilderness rules need to be reevaluated. Period. Its an easy, blanket ban that lobbyists can use to tear at the heart strings of citizens without going into the ramifications of the designation. LET THE LOCAL LEVEL MANAGE THEIR LANDS. NOT WASHINGTON.
  • 2 0
 @ightwoman: "Why can't hikers be satisfied with the access they have to developed trails and not push to damage pristine, sensitive wild areas?"

If we reverse the rolls and I asked you this question, how would you feel? Preservation and enjoyment of the wilderness is not mutually exclusive to the activity of hiking. Bicycles are also not wheeled vehicles, they are human powered bicycles akin to your shoes or randonee touring skis.

The reality is that any human access "damages" the wilderness, or what we refer to more commonly as "trails". That being said, hiking and cycling have pretty similar wear. Horses on the other hand completely trot out trails and leave feces everywhere.
  • 77 1
 Wilderness Bill, sounds like a cool dude... Clears first hurdle, yeah he's as athletic as I imagined he would be. In congress. Oh, that's got boring all of a sudden!!
  • 36 1
 I saw Wilderness Bill in the 98' Olympics... Damn near won Bronze in the 400M Hurdle. Did it all in Buckskins with a rifle and double bit Axe on his shoulder. It got weird when he started skinning a raccoon at the Medal Ceremony...
  • 6 0
 @Pisgah85: yeah, not the kinda guy who'd drink Coors light!!!!
  • 7 1
 Wilderness bill is fire marshal bills cousin
  • 3 0
 He's Buffalo Bill's brother.
  • 2 0
 @Pisgah85: 1998 was a Winter Olympics
  • 22 0
 @lccomz: That’s what made the 400m hurdle even more impressive.
  • 2 0
 Haha
  • 3 0
 Wilderness William
  • 2 0
 Wilderness Bill looks thick. Solid. Tight. Hope he keeps us all posted on his continued progress with any new progress pics or vid clips. Show us what you got Wilderness Bill. Wanna see how freakin’ huge, solid, tick and tight you can get. Thanks for the motivation.
  • 7 1
 @scottay2hottay: no homo
  • 53 5
 Call me a pessimist, but I have a suspicion that the people in Congress doesn't give two rat's asses rubbed together on what IMBA or what STC or what mountain bikers in general want with regards to access to wilderness. This is probably being driven by something else that has little to do with mountain biking, and all the in-fighting we do amongst ourselves will be strictly for our own amusement.
  • 9 7
 Correct. This legislation is intended to sow dissent within the ranks of Public Land Advocates.
  • 15 6
 @tristanjh and @matadorCE:

This is an unnecessarily pessimistic view of what our government does. There have been 4679 bills proposed in congress this year. Many of them are like the one we are debating - small tweaks to existing legislation that a small group brought to the attention of a few congresspeople. The respective committees debate them, and some of them pass. There is not some overarching conspiracy that binds these little bills together in some master plan to screw people over. The vast majority of them can be taken at face value. Only the big ones that make national news suffer from all of the dishonest politicking.
  • 11 0
 @SJP: I hope you're right, but there is a lot of evidence that it's money that makes the wheels of politics turn in the USA. Whether it's lobbying, fund raising, etc, money is what really gets results. Just look at the whole net neutrality thing.
  • 10 2
 @matadorCE Your last sentence in particular is what I've seen opponents to this bill emphasize: People will support the bill for ulterior gains.

I really REALLY want more access to wilderness areas. I'd be lying if I said I haven't poached a trail or two that, though labeled as wilderness, inexplicably connect the dots between legal riding areas. So, on one hand, the work of STC is incredible and serves my personal interests wonderfully.

My concern with STC is aligning themselves with representatives that, quite frankly, don't seem too concerned with responsible use and also have a very mediocre track-record when it comes to land use and conservation. Sure, removing this blanket ban will put the decision of access into the hands of the land mangers. But can't they be trusted?

Question: Who are these land managers? What interests are they protecting? With the deep pockets of lobbyists and the strong pull of anti-environment groups, is it that far-fetched to assume that land managers might make decisions that are, in fact, NOT in the best interest of the land?

I don't think so, but that's just me.
  • 1 2
 @matadorCE:
Well, yes. STC hired a lobbyist to get this bill to Congress. That does not affect anything I said. STC had a tiny amount of money to spend compared to lobbyists on issues that affect everyone in the US, just like lobbyists for many of the 4679 bills. And as for net neutrality, I think it is an obvious example of dishonest politicking. There is no reason it should be a Republocrat vs. Demican issue, but somehow it is. I, for one, see no reason I shouldn't be allowed to pay more to ensure my telesurgery control data gets priority over some other guy's porn or cat videos. Does that affect your opinion of my other arguments, because I think it shouldn't; they are unrelated?
  • 6 1
 I believe that the STC authors' intentions are genuine, and that they seek only to improve access for bikes. The problem, however, is that the bill is now in the hands of legislators who can tack on whatever they please. The sponsors in the house and senate are outspoken states rights activists, who want to transfer ownership of lands to the states, which would likely result in sale and loss of access to those lands. It will be informative to see what changes occur to the bill in congress, and this point should be followed closely by Pinkbike.
  • 4 0
 @Grimes1405: The same land managers that are managing the land now Grimes, ie: The US Forest Service, DNR, etc.. Nothing changes there. It's just a policy change that enables the land managers to make the decision instead of a national ban.
  • 1 1
 It has made me not hate my rep Bishop, maybe this is a easy way to get a few more votes?
  • 6 7
 @Grimes1405: What have republicans done to destroy public lands? You'd think from these comments republicans want to burn down the world, pee on it and put up walmart parking lots. .
  • 14 0
 @Gregorysmithj1: See: Dakota Access Pipeline
  • 4 0
 @SJP: I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue/discuss. There is no denying that money--whether for good or bad--makes politics work. You may be the best human being on the planet, but if you don't have the 'backing' (money) to run and work the system then you may as well not exist. STC may have the best of intentions, but they don't--and can't--control what version of the bill gets passed or what gets tacked on, etc.
  • 9 13
flag Gregorysmithj1 (Dec 19, 2017 at 15:50) (Below Threshold)
 @matadorCE: the pipeline got approval from both parties and locals had a opportunity to voice concerns before it was agreed. The protests that followed did thousands more times in damage than the actual pipeline so much so they ruined the drinking water.
  • 4 1
 @matadorCE: with your logic we shouldn't even try if there's a possibility of corruption.
  • 8 6
 @Gregorysmithj1: So the protestors leaked oil all over the river? Because that certainly sounds like it's something you'd attribute to a pipeline carrying a lot of oil across a river. And by "locals" you probably mean the white people who didn't want the thing near them, and instead voted to have it go across the reservation, right?
  • 1 0
 @Grimes1405: > Who are these land managers?

Federal employees of the US Forest Service who oversee wilderness areas.
  • 5 3
 @SJP: You're right - and I would agree with you under almost any other circumstance, but the level of coordination on this issue borders on unbelievable. For the record, I can't abide sounding like a conspiracy theorist, but between the timeline of actions, and the members moving this from sub-committee to committee, I'm confident that the stated goal is not the only outcome they are looking for. Just recently I attended several county-level hearings for a deeply unpopular policy written by an out-of-state law firm owned by one Karen Budd-Falen. Despite substantial local objection the policy passed here, and in several other counties in western states. Meanwhile, Budd-Falen, a self-avowed anti-federalist, is being considered to lead the BLM. Sorry if that seems like a tangent, but my point is that there is absolutely a coordinated effort going on to erode and undermine our Public Land estate and the institutions (antiquities act, wilderness act etc.) that protect it and it is happening at every level of government.
  • 3 0
 @matadorCE:
What I am arguing is that most small bills like this, that affect small numbers of Americans, can be taken at face value, even though the STC hired a lobbyist to help with the process. Sure, it is true that something may be tacked on to this bill, but it is also true that something can be tacked on to any of the 4679 bills proposed in Congress. So, why not do something we think is valuable for fear of something unrelated getting attached to it? That unrelated thing could be attached to anything if the bill we care about doesn't pass; we have no control over that either way.
  • 5 4
 @Gregorysmithj1: I guess all those protestors that were arrested, beaten, etc needed to do was check that site and go home? I find that a bit hard to believe. I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to the people that have systematically been screwed over by the government for generations.
  • 4 7
 @matadorCE: or you could spend five minutes of research on Google? Ugh.
  • 5 0
 The current government is definitely in the divide and conquer mode.
  • 1 0
 @dthomp325: Yes, and thank you for answering my question so literally. However, when thinking a little deeper, we can see that each land manager will have her or his own pre-existing bias, coupled with the varied needs of the local community. At first, this seems perfect: land managers will be able to react to the needs of their local constituents.

The slippery slope arises if other influences take hold. If you're not willing to acknowledge that possibility, then that's okay, but it's worth discussing, at least.
  • 2 0
 @boxxerace: Understood. My comment was more so on a deeper level. Who are they in terms of bias, connections, etc. I am aware of their position and that those positions won't be changing based on this legislation. Rather, this legislation gives them slightly more power and influence over land use. In terms of my local riding areas, should this bill pass, you better believe I'm going to be figuring out who my land managers are beyond simply being "The US Forest Service, DNR, etc.."
  • 1 0
 @Gregorysmithj1: Nowhere did I say destroy public lands.
  • 6 2
 @Gregorysmithj1: I don't mean to be presumptuous, but I'm assuming you don't care much for the scorecards issued by the League of Conservation voters. I have already voiced my support for the bill and already voiced by concern for potential consequences (e.g. slippery slope). However, if you're interested in looking at things from outside of the Republican perspective, you might find it interesting to connect the dots between the people involved and their voting patterns. That's all. Destroying the environment doesn't have to be a partisan thing. We as humans all seem to be pretty good at it, but some of us are simply more effective in the short term than others.
  • 5 3
 @Grimes1405: Who said I was republican? I vote almost always Democrat. I just don't like it when people always give Democrats a pass and assume republicans want the lad salted. Democrats globalization of manufacturing has hurt the environment in so many more ways than some republican ideals.
  • 1 0
 Land* salted
  • 6 8
 You are not a pessimist, you are simply a smart cynical person. I couldn't agree with you more. This bill was sponsored by REPUBLICANS which anyone with a brain can tell give not one rats ass about the environment or the earth. One of the sponsors of this bill was Orrin Hatch of Utah if that tells you anything about its intent...
  • 4 3
 @SJP: Not true, just look at who sponsored this bill, such as the likes of Orrin Hatch of Utah who has an almost perfect score for never doing anything for the environment ever, what does that tell you?
  • 4 10
flag ryanbpoquette (Dec 20, 2017 at 3:13) (Below Threshold)
 @Gregorysmithj1: You nailed it dude, have you ever spoken to a republican? How about one from Utah? They dont give a shit about the national parks, in fact they think it's their land (Just Utah) and they also were very happy about reducing both national monuments of bears ears and grand staircase escalante. They think all that land belongs to the state and would be happy to drill, frack or mine the shit out of it.
  • 3 6
 @Gregorysmithj1: Wow you have the perfect western mentality, let me guess youre from Utah right, probably hate the EPA, clean drinking water, clean air. all that shit sucks right, we should just put a pipeline through your house and see how you like it or maybe out one over the source of your drinking water? I don;t think you would like that
  • 2 7
flag ryanbpoquette (Dec 20, 2017 at 3:21) (Below Threshold)
 @matadorCE: Dont let people like @Gregorysmith get you down man, hes a classic trump supporter. I can't believe i would ever see someone arguing for the pipeline that just leaked 200,000 gallons of oil but no big deal right who needs clean water? Then blaming the indians for it wow just wow
  • 2 5
 @Gregorysmithj1: You are not a democrat dude we dont want people like you. youre not even a centrist, your bias is palpable
  • 6 1
 @ryanbpoquette:
What is not true? Who cares who sponsored it? At the end of the day it is the words in the bill that matter. It is this partisan bullshit that causes most of the problems with our government. Too many people don't give a shit about substance, all they care is that their team wins the vote count.
  • 4 0
 @ryanbpoquette: never said I supported the pipeline, never said I was for shrinking federal land. It's scary that the idea of being informed on topics we disagree with is not acceptable to you. You will never educate a republican if you don't care to understand what they think.
  • 1 0
 @ryanbpoquette: @matadorCE: Utahns want control over land that was historically used by them (before it was US territory back when the US government kicked them out of US and drove them to Mexico). Natives want land used by and sacred to them before it was a US territory to be respected. There both historically oppressed.
  • 3 1
 @SJP: If you have such a difficult time believing that this bill isn't meant specifically to weaken the wilderness designation, with the added benefit of driving a wedge between conservationists and mountain bikers (and infighting amongst bikers), look no further than the records of McClintock and Bishop.
  • 1 2
 @thedeathstar:
Since the bill would allow land managers to permit bicycles, where currently bicycles are banned, then one might say that it weakens the wilderness designation, as now people can access the wilderness using bicycles. I support this weakening of the wilderness act, because it means more people will experience the wilderness, leading to more public support for the protection of wilderness. The extra damage to the wilderness is worth the extra access.

The records of McClintock and Bishop have what to do with this?
  • 2 0
 @Grimes1405: Here, trailforks has made it pretty easy: www.pinkbike.com/news/us-land-owner-data-on-trailforks-2017.html

There's a tab you can select to turn on the land owner overlay. It won't give you every bit of detail, but you'll at least know what department is responsible for a given spot of land.
  • 1 2
 @SJP: They have a lot do with it as they are the writer and major supporter of this bill.

Unless you consider your bike a person, allowing bikes in wilderness does not allow more people to experience the wilderness.
  • 3 0
 @thedeathstar:
You are playing stupid word games. People who like riding bicycles will experience wilderness area more if they are allowed to ride bicycles in them.
  • 2 0
 @thedeathstar:
"They have a lot do with it as they are the writer and major supporter of this bill."

And the bill has a particular language. If a bill with the exact same language were introduced by Jerrold Nadler, would it make a difference? If so, why?
  • 2 0
 @SJP: You're playing word games. Why would you say it allows more people to experience wilderness when what you mean is that it will allow mountain bikers to experience wilderness more?

Yes, it would make a difference if the bill was introduced by anyone who didn't have a history of trying to erode federal protection of public lands. I'm sure you'll have something to say about that, but it's irrelevant because whether or not it's all partisanship or grandstanding, it hasn't happened.
  • 3 1
 @thedeathstar:
More people spending more time in the wilderness leads to greater public support for the preservation of wilderness.

Opposition to bills solely based on who supports or proposes them instead of based on the content of the bills is a major problem with our current politics.
  • 8 1
 @ryanbpoquette: This idea of "the bill is OK, but I'm not going to support it because I don't like who wrote it" makes me sick. This us vs them is the root of all of our political problems. It's why Dems weren't allowed into the tax bill negotiations, and it's why we can't get a decent healthcare bill passed. Seriously f this, sometimes you need to work with people you disagree with to pass legislation. Let's get over it and start working together again.

I've always voted Democrat in fed elections, and only ever voted for a few pragmatic Republicans in local races. This bill is not some "slippery slope" to allow oil drilling on Wilderness, it is a 2 line amendment that allows "non-motorized bicycles", wheelchairs, strollers, and game carts.
  • 1 0
 @Gregorysmithj1: Never said you were Republican. Simply said you're viewing their interaction with public lands through a Republican lens. They are simply not the champions for conservation (at least in the last 30 years) that you seem to be stating.
  • 1 0
 @Grimes1405: In another comment on this thread it said "you are not a democrat dude we don't want people like you". I was explaining a republican view not saying I agreed with it. I think Utah should keep lands federal, It saves local taxes and improves the tourism economy. I think Natives have been through enough and if they don't want a pipeline in their area even they should be allowed to get their way regardless if it is legally their land. I live in utah and need to understand why and how republicans think if i'm ever going to respect and get along with anyone here.
  • 2 1
 @SJP: you asked if it would make a difference, which I understood as a difference in my immediate suspicion of the bill, as that was the topic at hand. You did not ask if it would change my opposition, and it would not. The only change to wilderness regulations I would support is tightening them by banning horses.

This is one bill so you're stretching it pretty far to imply that anyone suspicious of it because of its proponents is the problem with politics. Will you feel better if I tell you that when I vote I vote for at least one republican just so I don't appear partisan?

I realize that lots of mountain bikers will support this bill, and I think that's selfish. I realize that many people will say who proposed the bill doesn't matter, and I think that's incredible folly. I think many of you are using one of those to justify the other. I don't think it's a "slippery slope", I think it's a precisely placed wedge.
  • 1 1
 @dthomp325: Stop talking about wheelchairs. There is nothing prohibiting wheelchairs, even motorized wheelchairs, in wilderness areas. You're talking pretty definitively about what this bill is and what its results will and will not be which seems strange considering you're either ignoring or are just unaware of facts.
  • 2 0
 @thedeathstar: ?

Wheelchairs are specifically mentioned, this is the bill's text:

"“Nothing in this section shall prohibit the use of motorized wheelchairs, non-motorized wheelchairs, non-motorized bicycles, strollers, wheelbarrows, survey wheels, measuring wheels, or game carts within any wilderness area.”.
  • 27 3
 IMBA 1. Sell off your trail building branch, I want locals to earn a living making trails. 2. Fire your PR and President 3. Hold member elections for President and all future leaders. 4. Kick R.E.I. and other board members that do not have mtb access as a priority out. 5. Support STC agenda, every group has a long term goal to keep the base going.. look at dems, republicans, religions.... At this point you are just treading water. No one wants to pay dues to a group that keeps the status quo. You need to have a spine, I need to feel like your fighters for the cause to ever donate again. 6. Stop playing party politics bashing republicans. 7. Recant the new policy of ebikes as non-motorized bikes.
  • 2 0
 Preach it brother. I really wish IMBA would just go away. Having them "represent" our needs is like having an older brother who keeps punching you in the face with your own hands, asking "why do you hit yourself?"
  • 17 1
 I'm a little mystified as to why a wilderness area (any area, actually) can't have some trails open to bikes and some not. And some horse trails, and some for hikers only. (No e-bikes, obviously. That's not arbitrary hate - I really think there shouldn't be anything motorized.) But I'm a simpleton.
  • 25 1
 @number44, I think that means you're even handed and objective. Sadly, there's not a shit ton of that going around these days.
  • 5 0
 It's just that age-old designation of motorized vs. non-motorized use coming around again as an easy method to manage trails. The real factor to consider is trail/road saturation and disturbance along those corridors. Wildlife are of particular concern especially with increased traffic and these last few wilderness areas of relatively low disturbance are key habitat for many species of conservation concern. In Central Oregon, we are dealing with a lot of that due to the population boom.
  • 2 8
flag ryanbpoquette (Dec 20, 2017 at 3:27) (Below Threshold)
 because then it wont be wilderness anymore
  • 3 1
 @ryanbpoquette: Because a bicycle rolls down the trail? Really?
  • 2 0
 I believe that is the purpose of this amendment, to give the choice to allow access on a case by case basis. It turns the choice over to the managers of each area.
  • 3 0
 @number44 Seems reasonable. But IMBA is getting in the way of that vision. The bill would allow exactly that - removal of the blanket ban and empowerment of local land managers to make decisions appropriate for the area. IMBA is on the wrong side of the argument.
  • 15 2
 "Pigs get fed, hogs get slaughtered"

IMBA, I have been a long time member and just let my membership lapse because of this. Your days are numbered if you don't start listening to your base. It's not too late to reject the darkside.

Now STC gets my $. Bacon....Mmmmmmnnnnn
  • 14 2
 I think we should ban modern trail running and hiking shoes and boots from wilderness areas cause the springy foam provides a mechanized advantage to hikers that was not available when the wilderness act was enacted. All foot travel in wilderness should be barefoot. If you're a hiker and that sounds insane now you know how bikers feel.

www.wired.com/story/do-nikes-new-marathon-shoes-make-you-faster-a-nike-funded-study-says-yes
  • 2 6
flag ryanbpoquette (Dec 20, 2017 at 3:28) (Below Threshold)
 lat time i checked we all have legs dude, I bike and don't feel that way at all
  • 6 0
 @ryanbpoquette: just following the letter of the law, shoes that take in energy and have materials that act as a spring providing a measurable improvement on ones hiking ability should be banned for providing a mechanized advantage.
  • 1 0
 @Kitejumping: You should cling to that red herring until your last breath. Never let go. The rest of us can have a grown up discussion.
  • 4 0
 Don't forget hiking poles that mechanically support those on two feet! Not the intent of the wilderness act at all, destroyers of the planet if you ask me!
  • 5 0
 Yeah those people with their speedy fancy mechanized gear are ruining the wilderness experience for all of us barefoot hikers.
  • 14 3
 It's obvious that IMBA does not care whatsoever about the average mountain biker. They seem to only have their best interests at heart.
  • 13 1
 i honestly cant tell what their interests are.
  • 6 15
flag tristanjh (Dec 19, 2017 at 13:10) (Below Threshold)
 IMBA understands that each land-use designation serves a different goal and that by allowing special interest to compromise one, they are complicit in the erosion of an infrastructure that benefits all forms of outdoor recreation.
  • 15 0
 @adrennan: Money from the bike industry, so currently electric motorcycles.
  • 5 0
 @tristanjh: The bill would lift a blanket ban and give more autonomy to local land managers. That's not exactly the same as fundamentally eroding the wilderness designation.

An analog can be found in recreational marijuana legislation (at least in California.) Soon to be legal at the state level, but plenty of local jursidictions continuing the ban. I happen to live in a county that ironically spearheaded legal pot, but now is very anti-recreational. And coincidentally, pretty anti-mountain biking despite some serious history with that too.

If HR 1349 and the related Senate bill do pass, there's a big chunk of wilderness here that has sweet singletrack. I'd love to see the local director give it a green light. I doubt it'll happen, but I do think each wilderness unit should be managed at the local level, not nationally. My two cents. . .
  • 2 0
 Clearly, hiking.
  • 5 0
 @tristanjh: imba is a special interest group. That's the whole freaking point, they're supposed to be advocating for mountain bike access.
  • 1 3
 @mikeynets: I can totally appreciate your desire to ride awesome trails in places you haven't - I have similar impulses, but here's the deal: Federal management better ensures federal funding, which better ensures our ability to access our land, and perhaps most importantly, that the land remains OURS. Local control also gives rise to its own set of problems: most often local managers create policies that disproportionally benefit locals, which creates a bit of a slippery slope when it comes to funding.
In very broad strokes the current mandate that federal land managers work under seeks mutual benefit for all Americans, which might be a hard pill to swallow, but that's the 'U' in USA.
As residents of western states, you and I are fortunate to have better access to most of these lands than many, but those people in other states hold deed to the land same as you and me. Beyond sustaining $880 bn/y recreation industry, I would argue that this carefully maintained estate is responsible for America's actual greatness. Public land gives us clean water and air, it sustains many of the most-complete ecosystems that remain on the planet. It protects our outdoor heritage and history and created our git-er-done sensibility + We have more, better and cheaper recreation opportunities, than anywhere else in the world, except maybe New Zealand (which has a solid public-land model)
Private land is important, but it ensures none of these things - quite the contrary. Sure there are other places where riding and private property co-exist, but the right to roam exists only on the whim of public landowners, and our litigious nature here in the US doesn't exactly inspire hope, should the landscape of management/ownership change. Sorry for the long-winded response.
  • 5 0
 @tristanjh: the bill doesn't change any of that. Wilderness is still federally controlled. All the bill does is give the federal employees who manage Wilderness areas the ability to allow bicycles if they choose.
  • 5 0
 @dthomp325: I'm a gun owner, but I don't agree with the NRA on many things. We've arrived at an interesting point in American politics where the concept of the greater good has taken a distant back seat to special interest. That's messed up, and more riders should be able to appreciate that.
  • 7 0
 Why don’t “we” as in “we mountain bikers” form a group that’s not the IMBA or the STC? The STCis just a hired gun. I mean an actual advocacy group and petition congress. Do good things throughout the land, enhance conservation issues, build trails etc. in short actually be what the IMBA is supposed to be. I’ll start it if I get enough upvotes here.
  • 6 0
 can we get a roundtable discussion similar to what was recently done for the new standards with STC and IMBA and other stake holders? I enjoy the podcast format and getting those two opposing views in a room together ought to be very entertaining and possibly informative.
  • 2 0
 Here's a pretty close example of what you are after by Pinkbike's own, Brent H. Start with this episode, then listen to the next four. It's quite well done: frontlinesmtb.com/2017/09/28/ep-25-bikes-in-wilderness-part-1-your-introduction-to-the-topic
  • 3 2
 I second this. I'm an avid cyclist AND a board member of a national PublicLands Advocacy group. There are more than enough misconceptions to go over and we need some balance in the conversation rather than allowing our own special interest to drive the decision. @vernonfelton can we do this, please?
  • 7 0
 @tristanjh: I'd love to. We'll see what we can do given timing and funding.
  • 3 12
flag Monstertruckermotherfuker (Dec 19, 2017 at 14:23) (Below Threshold)
 @vernonfelton: funding? What about that load of cash Polygon just paid you for that plug.
  • 8 0
 IMBA isn't gonna be the same after this. Most MTBers are gonna pull their support. The opportunity we've been waiting for for years, and IMBA opposes it? Come on!
  • 6 0
 THANK YOU @vernonfelton for these articles! This "Banned in America" problem is the EXACT SAME ISSUE that us Puget Sound area bikers are facing over a lovely place called Lord Hill Regional Park. This describes it all. "Since 1984, several independent studies have shown that bikes have about the same amount of erosive impact as hiking and considerably less impact than equestrians. There is no environmental merit to banning bikes. None. Many opponents of bikes in Wilderness acknowledge this. Bikes, they argue instead, simply don’t “belong”. It’s less a science thing and more a social thing. Hikers and horseback riders don’t like mountain bikers." Evergreen Mtb Alliance has proposed creating some mtb features on the trails in this enormous park. Some of the other locals have freaked out, saying it would be an environmental catastrophe. Anyone who knows about Evergreen or their trails knows how much this group cares about the environment. Seriously, ask people who have been to this park, and the one ubiquitous complaint is about horse poop galore. We all know bikers won't destroy the park anyway. It's illogical; these people just don't like us. They've called the local government officials liars... apparently, bikers are too "noisy". What the heck? This is a nearly 1,500 acre park! What could any "neighbors" complain about?! Except for the "neigh" part, I can't think of much. Raise awareness... SAVE THE TRAILS!!!
  • 2 0
 Oh... and the other complaint? That trails aren't maintained... What could possibly fix that? Madder Construction Facepalm
BTW, how many region residents out here would sign a petition to allow the proposal to be discussed, if I could put one together or something?
  • 1 0
 Edit: I didn't mean to say that all opposition is crazy. I'm sure there are reasonable people on the other side. It's just that everyone should be able to talk it over, and they are obstructing that. On the other hand, if they are being illogical, unreasonable, and unwilling to talk, maybe they are a little crazy... Big Grin
  • 2 0
 Evergreen's position is the best, most thought-out I've seen on the topic: www.evergreenmtb.org/blog/bikes-in-wilderness-what-does-it-mean-for-washington-mtb
  • 12 7
 Headline should read "Wilderness Bill Bunnyhops First Log" or "Jumps First Gap." No?

Anyway, let's push onward to even more exploitation of natural resources and destruction of natural habitats in the name of human progress and entitlement (or in the case of POTUS, subhuman progress and entitlement).
  • 5 0
 I think it is a good compromise to replace a blanket ban with the provision for local land managers to make the decision. Whilst some land managers may still end up banning bikes, this at least gives local riders and organizations the opportunity to start a dialogue with the decision makers. Advocacy goes a long way if it's done right. (End of day it's every riders' responsibility to not leave a negative impression on the sport...)
  • 1 1
 I don't see any provision in the bill for land managers to make decisions. All I see is a one page document lifting the ban on a few forms of non-mechanized travel across all wilderness areas. Am I missing something from the link in the above article?
  • 8 0
 Hey, let's oppose legislation providing TRAIL ACCESS to bikes...

IMBA: Great idea! Hold my beer.
  • 1 0
 What a joke. Great read. Not only did they oppose trail access in their testimony, but they threw in some groundwork for e-bikes regarding how "motorized" bikes are classified.

"Mechanized Versus Motorized

We also want to briefly highlight a growing need for Congress and the federal agencies to more carefully
consider the differences between mechanized and motorized uses of trails and public lands. Frequently,
legislation will give direction to agencies regarding “mechanized or motorized” uses, lumping both
platforms into a single sentence. In many cases, treating these uses as the same or even substantially
similar does not reflect important differences in patterns of use and unique management requirements."

Source: www.imba.com/sites/default/files/HR1349_IMBA-Testimony_12-6-17.pdf
  • 6 0
 I used to think IMBA had a problem for being too passive and letting others deal them the scraps in land access. Now I just think they are misguided.
  • 10 1
 Suck it IMBA.
  • 4 0
 Poachers gonna poach... Whether you're a hiker, biker, hunter, equestrian. Give us MTB'ers equal access and let those that respect the land lead by example (i.e. LNT practices when applicable). Hold the entitled/uneducated that abuse the right accountable, regardless of your rec. of choice.
  • 8 4
 At first I was all for this, but as it has progressed and I've had time to digest the potential ramifications I'm of the opinion that it is not only NOT a good thing, but could very well result in a big time net loss for mountain bikers. This isn't going to be a popular position in an age where everything has been reduced to 30 second soundbites and bumper sticker slogans, but hear me out...

First, I live near several wilderness areas and would love to ride through them. However, if we're being honest there really isn't THAT much prime trail that is really great for riding. The net gain of useable trails from being able to access wilderness areas probably isn't going to be that large. But any gained access is good, right? Well consider the potential downside to this: how is the conservation community going to react? We all know how they are going to react, so I guess the question really should be why should we give a shit how they react? If you look at a list of the largest charitable groups in the US, it is littered with conservation based organizations. The Wildlife Conservation Society has revenues topping $200M and over a million members. Sierra Club has 3M members. I'm sure there are a ton of others with even larger membership bodies. If this passes it will be GAME ON for their legal/political wing. War will have been declared and they'll crush us. Literally crush us with a bottomless pool of resources. IMBA has what, 40k members? Yeah, they would crush us both in court and with their lobbying efforts.

Even if we put that reality aside for a moment and assume this passes, doesn't get litigated for a decade, and somehow we out-lobby some of the most powerful forces in American politics. This isn't a silver bullet that instantly gives us access to the 235M acres of wilderness area out there. You still have administrative processes that have to be followed. Impact studies and all sorts of bureaucratic crap that will take time. And effort by those working in an already underfunded government agency. So you can count on this taking a long ass time, and in the mean time all other efforts to grant trail access will come to a screeching halt. Despite the setbacks we see in the headlines and are frustrated by, new trails are being built. I left this sport a long time ago (partly to work in politics oddly enough,) and when I came back to it I was nothing short of amazed at what was available to riders. As someone who spent their younger years building and riding illegal trails because that was absolutely the only stuff to ride, I was blown away that we were considered to be even remotely "legitimate." The pendulum is swinging in our direction folks; its just that in the world of politics and law and bureaucracy the pendulum swings really, really slowly. My point is that it won't be for long if this passes. We will have pulled the rug out from under ourselves I fear. The scraps that we have fought for, that finally became an actual seat at the table (call it a seat at the kids' table if you want...) will be gone. The conservation giants will say "f*ck these guys" and lump us with motorcycles and monster trucks and strip mining.

I think what we need going forward is a new designation to protect and conserve lands. Something that allows snowmobiles and motos and rock crawlers and hikers and mountain bikers and all the other outdoor recreation you can imagine. Take it and protect it. Protect it from loss but still let us use it for crying out loud. And part of that is to stop this Wilderness Study Area nonsense that is the real problem. Land gets declared a study area, we lose access, then it just stays that way for decades. Its bullshit. WTF are they studying? Nothing, its just a redtape version of more wilderness. This is the bill we should be rallying behind, from Senator Daines of Montana releasing some of those study areas: www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/2206/text

Finally, do you really think Congressman McClintock authored this to help us? Part of why I moved west was to leave the world of poliltics behind. I was heavily involved in that world, even working as a consultant to a Presidential candidate. Trust me when I say these things usually aren't done because they want to help us little guys. There is almost always an ulterior motive, and I'm pretty sure that's the case here. It seems like there are attempts all over to drive wedges between groups and distract attention from a larger effort to reduce the land under federal control. Lots of little fires being started to keep attention and effort from being unified against that effort. We're a very small fire in that plot.

I'm a big believer in Occam's Razor, that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. The more you look at this, the less simple it gets however. Is the likeliest explanation that we all of a sudden have enough clout to change decades of conservation rules? Or is it that somebody is using us to stir the shit and distract from the bigger picture? As for me, I'm giving IMBA the benefit of the doubt for now and assuming they are much more versed in the nuances of this mess than I am, and I'm renewing my membership. Let the downvoting commence...
  • 2 0
 Most conservatives are pro local control of land they live on..maybe he's a rino with establishment intentions at heart? I dont know, haven't researched him.
Is anyone yelling about all the 3-5 story 'luxury condos/apartments' going up.everywhere?
  • 5 2
 I support H.R. 1349 so I can have more access while pushing my B.O.B. stroller with my little son. My stroller is the safest, funnest way for us to be on the trails, and it is banned in Wilderness areas. H.R. 1349 should allow local land managers to make access decisions, and that will not erode the extent and intent of the Wilderness Act.
  • 4 0
 Based on their bold and brash behavior, it makes one curious what we'd find if we audited the IMBA's financial books. Wonder who from the Sierra Club or their ilk, donated to them recently?
  • 2 0
 An interesting thing is that IMBA's finances have been going down in recent years. This action by them won't help that.
  • 4 0
 Honest question, why is NEMBA sponsoring the petition, there are almost no wilderness area designated in New England, less that affect mountain biking. see for yourself
www.wilderness.net/map
  • 2 0
 I thought that was odd also. I didn't think there was any wilderness in NE, thanks for the map.
  • 1 0
 Probably for the same reason many others (which is what needs to happen) support this...it is an issue of access for mountain bikes as a non-motorized form of recreation as was allowed by the original Wilderness act. It IS the right thing to do!! I would also like to think that we all dream of experiencing our wilderness in a manor that is no more destructive than hiking, and much less destructive the equestrian activities, to the environment of our national wilderness. And lastly...there are plenty of ways for us mountain bikers who are not fortunate enough to live near the protected areas to make life changing trips to experience our beautiful country in all its unspoiled glory as intended by the Wilderness Act of 1964. Access for mountain bikes is not just for people who live near these areas!
  • 1 0
 @RCDallas: new to pinkbike? Welcome then! I am ok there are places that I can't go on a bike. What I find surprising is that NEMBA is investing time and money on this, but has put so little effort on improving and growing trails out in New England. There are no public bike parks, public pump tracks, no youth programs, just a once a year overpriced jamboree, at kingdom trails for middle age joeys, who enjoy crowded flow trails once a year. Then they go back to ride shit home trails that are no fun, built by NEMBA 20 years ago.
  • 6 3
 I was deeply skeptical of the first version of this bill because it was would have had the effect of making it extremely difficult for land managers to prevent the use of bicycles in any wilderness and was being shepherded through the process by a deeply anti-conservation Congressman.

The amended legislation is significantly better and seems like a genuine attempt to do what it says on the package: allow each land management unit of the Federal Government to make a decision about wilderness areas under their jurisdiction on a case by case basis. So I'm now cautiously supportive.

It could still use some work to make it clear that local land manager discretion is not complete and must still be grounded in findings showing that bicycle use in each particular case is consistent with the purposes of the Wilderness Act.

What would set at least my concerns to rest, is language making it clear that changes in trail uses should be made on a case by case basis and supported by findings showing that allowing the use of bikes would not damage the wilderness values of the specific area where use was allowed.
  • 3 1
 Bollocks. Nothing in that bill makes anything difficult for land managers.
  • 5 1
 @Axxe: Simply put, you're wrong.

This bill as it stands is an unfunded mandate and I think you may be massively discounting the amount of time, work, and money it takes for a land manager to make a reasoned and legally defensible decision on use. Since the goal here is to allow bikes on some trails on some wilderness areas but not other trails it will take a lot of work to figure that all out and build the administrative record to support the decision in each of the 765 Wilderness Areas.

I agree that this work should be done, and I'm ok adding things to the to do list, but it's pretty messed up to ask the Forest Service and BLM to do all of this without, you know, providing them any money with which to do it. You have to understand that this is being considered at the same time that budgets for the Forest Service and BLM are decreasing and ever larger portions of what budget they is being consumed by fighting wildfire. Most of these units have unfilled positions, and folks doing multiple jobs already, simply because they can't afford to hire anyone.

Setting that aside, by failing to be specific enough in it's drafting it leaves some important questions as to the bounds of their discreation up to varied interpretations. Depending on the course taken by the land managers, it could create significant litigation risk from the "no bikes ever" crowd.

I want Congress to do this, but we'll all be better off if they do it right.
  • 3 3
 @isilverman: You obviously can’t read, so any attempts to enlighten you would be wasted here. But for the benefit of open minded people let me rebuke your drivel.

STC’s amendment only clarifies language of the law to enforce original intent of the Wilderness Act. That original intent is well documented. It was abused and misinterpreted by the forest service on behest of radical anti human extremists.
Too bad you are blind and side with our enemies.
  • 4 0
 @Axxe: Did you (or anyone else) notice that you didn't actually rebuke a single statement that I made about how our government actually functions? All you did was accuse me of being illiterate (demonstrably false btw) and then changed the subject.

You are a troll. I'm done here.
  • 3 0
 @Axxe: Wow, did you even notice that he supports your position on Wilderness? You're calling out someone that agrees with you.
  • 3 0
 @isilverman: As a fed, I appreciate your concern about unfunded mandates. But that's not what this is. It simply enables a decision, it doesn't force one. I suspect that, if this passes, there will be a blanket "all mountain bikes are banned by default until the land manager says otherwise" stance, and at that point the land managers can deal with it at their own pace.

I know a few land managers. You're right - they have a ton on their plate. But this is what they do, and I don't think it would materially add to their workload.
  • 2 0
 @Layman:

Thanks for the perspective. It’ll be interesting to see what the regulation looks like coming from the national forest service as that will have a lot of impact on the burden on local land managers.

But the more I think about it you are likely right that the national rulemaking implementing the change in law would likely elect to keep current restrictions in place until a local unit makes another decision. To do otherwise would risk likely successful NEPA litigation.

Also, agree that “this is what they do” but revisiting the travel plans for each of the 765 Wilderness Areas still seems like a lot of work to me.

What’s your take on the pace of that happening?
  • 3 0
 @isilverman: Good question. In aggregate, slowly. But individual areas may happen much faster depending on the receptiveness of the local land manager. My understanding of the Forest Service is that the individual land managers have a ton of autonomy and can respond reasonably quickly when necessary / they choose to. With that in mind, it makes sense for local MTB organizations to start making friends with the Forest Supervisor in their area.
  • 2 0
 @Layman: Agree it'll be relatively slow (2-3 years out for any new access in best case scenario).

As far as making friends with your local Forest Supervisor goes, this has been important forever. A good way to do this (and speed things along) would be to start raising money for the studies and stakeholder outreach these local landowners likely will need to do in order to open up these trails.

Autonomy of local land manager is large on paper but often runs into politics related to local congresspeople (who control the purse strings) and the appointees in senior leadership positions like the Secretary of Interior (who the power to set policy tone and also override local decisions).

I've come around to being optimistic that there may be some real benefit here. That said, I still think that a more narrowly tailored bill, one that called out recent designations with historic mountain bike access and trails where designations significantly disrupt connectivity for consideration for MTB use would have been a better move.
  • 6 0
 Defecation hits the oscillation
  • 10 8
 I'm gonna lose my shit if I hear one more person state that some government letter agency "owns" the land. We own the land. That is a fact. It is our to recreate on as we decide, I don't need the fed telling my state what rules they have to follow either when it comes to this.
  • 13 0
 Here in Utah it feels like the opposite issue. It’s the state government that takes away access and sells the land to private industry or developers and then we the public no longer have access. So we need the Feds to keep land open and public.
  • 1 4
 @solidautomech:

What planet do you live on? How many times has some jackass forest service ‘land manager’ torn out our trails? It’s the shittiest part of living in his state. That state lands keep them from taking it all
  • 3 0
 @solidautomech: Interesting, you are the first UTAH local to mention this that I've seen. Like you, I prefer to see the land in question undeveloped, raw and wild.
  • 6 0
 @sumarongi: I can not access some of the trails in the neighborhood I live in because the local government sold land to wealthy developers and didn’t bother to create access points/ rights of way. As for the trails that I know of that have been shut down in the SLC area they were all shut down because they were on private property. I’d love for there to be biking in Wilderness areas but I have concerns about this bill because it was proposed by two senators from Utah who are pro oil, coal, gas, development and don’t seem to care much about air or water quality. Development is going to happen but does it have to happen at the cost us our health or our access to public land? Maybe we can’t access all of it on a bike but at least we can access it.

@isilverman: are you suggesting the NY TImes article for me or drunknride?
  • 1 1
 @solidautomech: it was intended for @drunknride, although it's quick a worthwhile read for anyone interested in history of public land ownership in the West.
  • 2 1
 @isilverman: That barely touches on the history of public land ownership. My point was about citizens having rights to use the recreational land in their country and managing that land should be done by locals that have it's best interest in mind. If my tax dollars support a place, I should have access to it.
I also think the people who do not contribute to society tax-wise should mow my lawn every once in a while...
  • 1 0
 @drunknride: my tax dollars pays for landfills, superfund sites, prisons, military training areas, etc, "if my tax dollars supports a place, I should have access to it". Go ahead!
  • 2 0
 I thought 'Wilderness Bill' was a person fat first when I saw the heading... Who is Wilderness Bill, you might ask? He is an anti-politician and world class mountain biker. He never skids except when he has to poop really bad and always gets off his bike for a horse.
  • 2 0
 We are a Country divided on most things given today's climate, don't think it matters what the issue is as each side retreats into a corner and yells from afar. Besides nothing wrong with an occasional poach while leaving zero impact and cleaning up where you see it.
  • 2 0
 this is a huge win for us, and why I continue to support STC instead of IMBA. For the record, I don't want bikes in all wilderness area, but I don't want them cart blanche banned from all wilderness areas either. I'd like the option to consider bike access on a case-by -case basis, as the STC is proposing.
  • 5 0
 GOD BLESS the Sustainable Trails Coalition!
  • 3 0
 Don’t forget that IMBA came out against mountain biking. There stance is poisonous well beyond wilderness.

Down with IMBA
  • 1 0
 Too bad we can't work together on this imba/stc! We can get more accomplished together vs going our own separate ways. Anything with govt. takes time, sometimes a long time.

Here in the eastern sierra (inyo & humboldt toiyabe), a lot of higher elevation riding is in wilderness...hence off limits.

Appears the recreation act/not red tapeact is moving too slow for stc.

Will probably sign petition.

Gerry
  • 1 0
 Think it's about time you realized that the MTB community is a very small fish in a very big pond. If we don't maintain effective alliances with other access minded groups we risk having a voice at the table and will be back to sneaking on to private land to ride like we had to do in the 90's. Today we have an amazing amount of access to trails. That access has been gained by and large in small steps over many years based on building coalitions with other like minded groups such that the consolidated position has a chance of being heard by decision makers. While I don't think that IMBA did a very good job selling their position to the MTB community at large I am certain that it's the right position given the realities of how Washington, or any Government for that matter, works. Bottom line, we need friends in this fight and this bill is pissing them off. Highly recommend we don't get distracted by the shiny object that others have dangled in front of us and stay the course that has gained us so much.
  • 2 2
 In reading IMBA's testimony to congress it appears they also threw in support for E-Bikes? Thoughts on what this means?

"Mechanized Versus Motorized

We also want to briefly highlight a growing need for Congress and the federal agencies to more carefully
consider the differences between mechanized and motorized uses of trails and public lands. Frequently,
legislation will give direction to agencies regarding “mechanized or motorized” uses, lumping both
platforms into a single sentence. In many cases, treating these uses as the same or even substantially
similar does not reflect important differences in patterns of use and unique management requirements."

Source: www.imba.com/sites/default/files/HR1349_IMBA-Testimony_12-6-17.pdf
  • 6 2
 And IMBA can die a slow death...
  • 3 0
 Quick one would be better.
  • 2 0
 Anybody have a MikeVanderham sighting lately?
I did on an comment board last week.
Asked him if had attacked any trail users lately, sadly he did not answer. :-)
  • 1 1
 Below threshold! Oh goodness, I've been voted off Survivor Island... The majority of posts here illustrate two major malfunctions afflicting our society in general. #1, education... or lack there of and #2, over population. Wilderness designation exists for the simple reason of the essential. Nothing to maintain but yourself. Walk away from the maintainence of all your extraneous toys and societal/cultural baggage and reconnect with the basic nature of your soul. Or in other words Get a grip.
  • 3 0
 Do you have to be a US resident to sign the petition?
  • 7 0
 Since the petition doesn't actually carry any legal weight I say go for it!
  • 5 1
 yeah man, go for the I in IMBA and spread the world globally! Might make them think twice before going for a global audience with such a pretentious name next time... Maybe the "I" would be replaced with a "B" (for Boulder) and maybe they could crawl back into that little Sierra Club bubble in the rockies.
  • 4 0
 @pdelbusto: saying they are in a bubble in the Rockies is like saying Coors is brewed high in the mountains. They are both in the foothills but love to push their agenda everywhere else. Other than valmont, boulder doesn't even have mountain biking in town. If IMBA cared about mountain biking they would have moved out of boulder long ago.
  • 4 0
 @Kitejumping: I cannot agree more with your statement about the relationship of their location and how much they care about representing mountain biking.
  • 6 0
 @pdelbusto: ha the boulder mountain bike alliance just dumped IMBA. Maybe there is hope after all.
  • 2 0
 @Kitejumping: wow! it's a Christmas miracle!
  • 2 0
 Nice to see at least one mountain bike organization advocating for the interests of mountain bikers.
  • 3 0
 If we can get the game carters on our side we are golden!
  • 3 0
 Re open the gallatin divide to mtb’s!
  • 2 0
 Did anyone else come here to read about a guy who has earnt the legendary name "Wilderness Bill"?
  • 9 11
 If the conservation areas open up to bikes, you can bet your ass E bikes will find a way in as well, something about accessibility for the disabled will have a play. Once the E-bike line is crossed, conservation is out the window. For that reason, I would sacrifice biking on this land. Then again, politicians flip a switch tomorrow and develop the land as they please, maybe getting in there before hand allows more people to appreciate and protect.
  • 14 0
 An opinion with zero evidence. I would point out that bicycles were originally allowed and now they aren't because they are not specifically named in the bill, sounds like the exact opposite of your argument eh?
  • 6 2
 What you leave out is that what is considered "Wilderness" is millions upon millions of square miles, and growing every day. Mountain biking leaves less of an impact than horses and even hikers.
  • 2 1
 The ADA has long given access for motorbikes on non-motorized trails I am sick of the manipulative emotional argument that ebikes have to be legal. The disabled already have access to trails we don't need to waterdown the laws to facilitate that. The ebike lobby across the US is screwing over the taxpayer pushing the absurd narrative that ebikes don't need to be registered as a motor vehicle. The tax payer deserves people who use motorized transport to pay their fair share.
  • 6 0
 Slippery slope argument is pure bullshit. It is very explicitly written to exclude ebikes. Maybe that is why IMBA and their corporate masters do not like it.
  • 3 0
 The proposed bill is pretty clear. It says no motorized access other than "motorized wheelchairs". I guess there might be some wiggle room around what constitutes a "motorized wheelchair", but motorized bikes are explicitly banned.
  • 5 3
 Signed. MTB's (non motorized traffic) belong in the wilderness.
  • 3 4
 Nobody should say anything about this, until they read this Bill front to back. BUT this is Pinkbike, and everyone thinks they know everything. Wheel size doesn't matter. Its all about the personal experience
  • 2 4
 I like moab... bikers and off-roaders getting along... The grease monkey 4x4 guys get along with granola dirtbag climbers and bikers... works for me.

I do both, and seems like if I take my jeep anywhere in the northwest, I can count on some subaru folks giving me the stink-eye... yet bikers can go build machine built badass trails, and it's "saving nature"...

The guys who made the wilderness act did so because they saw people getting lazy with cars, phones, and urban life and wanted to encourage folks to go out there, not drive through it. There was no mountain biking then, the stupid special interest clubs came in and made that mess... and with enough money, they win the battle and get what they want. mountain bike clubs? there was nothing like this back when they got banned.... the original intent of wilderness act was to make people go out and enjoy the mountains, not save it from being used.

Fine the shit out of people who abuse the land, let locals decide what might be best in their wilderness areas...
  • 4 2
 You are ignorant. Not only there was off road bycicling back then, president specifically mentioned cycling after signing the bill. Purpose of Wilderness was defined as preservation for the enjoyment of people. Not for exclusion of people.
  • 1 0
 @Axxe: Isn't that what I just said... the intent was to not exclude people, but to push people out to enjoy it? And I'm sure there were bikes that went offroad, but seriously, there was no clubs to hold against groups that came along later and lobbied.
  • 1 0
 SIGN THE FRIGGEN PETITION!!!!!!!!!!! IMBA... Interfering with Mountain Bike Access!!!
  • 1 0
 hunters can be and often are hunters , not all hunters have common sense and neither do all mountain bikers
  • 1 0
 What I meant to post was hunters can be bikers and vice versa , idiots in both crowds ,you get the point
  • 1 0
 Wilderness Bill can survive 2 weeks in the woods with a pocket knife and 10ft piece of rope.
  • 1 0
 Anyone else wonder for a second why 'Wilderness Bill' was doing hurdles in Congress?
  • 1 0
 Wallmart has got plenty of quality beef and poultry, why hunt?
  • 2 0
 It would be cheaper. I took 5 weeks off to hunt this fall. My meat is at about $50 per pound
  • 2 0
 Cuz the meat at walmart's garbage
  • 1 1
 that is the same as saying e bikes have motors , why pedal ?
  • 1 1
 sean estes is the bees knees
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