YT Replacing Capra Shred Dampers Due to Shock Failures

 Welcome to buying a consumer direct, companies bike.

 @rumblefish255: this narrative is old and tired. It's not the distribution model which dictates the dedication to customer service a brand has. Im currently having a pretty terrible customer service experience with a $7K bike I purchased through an LBS who is trying to get warranty support on a 1.5 month old bike which an obvious warranty issue....and Im neighbors/friends with the manager!

 ill take the old one

 @DubC: I know it's old, I've actually had pretty good support from YT. I've cracked my frame 3 times in the past two years and all three times the rep was incredibly helpful. Even upgraded me from carbon to aluminum at no cost to me after the last crack.

 @DubC: Yeah, I dealt with a shop for 6 months to get my SID warrantied. Its not exactly easier if the shop you go through isn't on the ball. I ended up taking it to another shop in my area and they dealt with it the same day.

 @FloridaHasMTBToo: Upgrade from carbon to aluminum? I have some arizona oceanfront for sale if you want it....

 I have read here on multiple other articles that YT is getting a lot better at customer service . . . not my experience . . but its hopeful they are getting their act together

 @rumblefish255: Not all direct to consumer brands are created equal, Commencal was top notch and honesty their customer service was one of my highlights of the whole buying experience.

 @DubC: maybe a old narrative but as an average very true. I have been in this industry a LONG time and I get tired of helping customers with warranty issues on consumer direct brands. All the brands I work with/sell at my store do great at warranty and if a brand sucks at warranty I cut the brand out of my lineup. Im not here to say all brands through shops are perfect but as an average they are better than consumer direct. That being said I’ve actually had one consumer direct company actually come through for a customer and be very helpful and timely. But all the others have sucked so far. Particularly YT!! That being said I am sorry to hear your bike has an issue I hope you hate we brand it is eventually comes through for you.

 @saccocrap: very true. I’m just speaking at an average. I have been in the bike industry a while and own a shop and have to help more people through warranties than I can recall. But Almost all consumer direct brands suck at customer service. There are always exceptions. I’ve also had some bike shop brands suck at customer service too. It’s a two way street with brands from bike shops on average usually having better service.

 @FloridaHasMTBToo:

Upgraded from carbon to aluminum.

 @rumblefish255: just curious, are you charging a fee to warranty D2C brands?

 @rumblefish255: That was my experience with YT. Three weeks and countless emails to ship an in-stock derailleur hanger 50 miles. Before that, a month to replace the busted shock it shipped with. Next bike was from a LBS and the difference was night and day. Good luck to anyone who buys a complicated e-bike from consumer-direct brands...

 @rumblefish255: To automatically blame it on consumer direct companies is lazy and ignorant. I have a Commencal (That I absolutely Love) and have had nothing but great customer service. Id be more upset with YT at not getting the correct shock on the bike in the first place, and now you have to go from a coil to air shock?! I m sure a lot of riders chose that bike with the coil for a reason and now they have to get a new shock that is not the same as they paid for?!

 They responded to my inquiry today specific to the recall notification I received. YT advised that they received the full shipments of the replacements today and will be sending out beginning of next week. We shall see.

 @NotSoFresh: as far as I’m concerned that is in fact an upgrade. Not everyone feels the same way, and I’m aware that carbon frames cost more than alu ones. Price does not always reflect value for the person in question.
I’d way rather have an Osprey backpack for carrying my laptop, than a more expensive leather LV bag. To each their own

 @NotSoFresh: oops meant alu to carbon lol

 @FloridaHasMTBToo: Good to hear the support was alright, but it feels like there's a bigger problem at hand if you're cracking their frames that much...

 @ConMan05: nah he's really tall and sends it! but still, probably a design flaw

 @onawalk: In actual fact i am the same way, i will not ride carbon. In my mind it should be race only. The "upgrade" to the lower cost option was funny though

 @ConMan05: *cough* roof hucks *cough cough*

 @FloridaHasMTBToo: If I had a frame that cracked 3 times in the past 2 years, you can bet your bippy that I'm going to be getting rid of that brand and never looking back. A cracked frame is not a normal thing, and shows a serious case of lack of quality.

 @sledMXer: As I said before: roof hucks. I'm also a high schooler, so I can't just buy a new bike whenever.

 @NotSoFresh: fair,
I think all materials have their place, it’s all down to personal preferences, and use case. I’m not a mechanically sympathetic person, and tend to be hard on gear. While pedalling, and in off bike handling, I feel carbon is too fragile for my laissez-faire attitude

 @rumblefish255: So no conflict of interest to declare then?

 @DubC: It's not a tired narrative if it's still true!! Buying direct is a pain in the butt. It took 3 months for me to get a set of bushings

 @sledMXer: But what if the frame is just a absolut dream to ride even though it cracks ? Because thats what I'm doing with my Spec Enduro (2 Frame in 2 Years) but they keep giving me new ones after so I keep riding them

 @EricSharp: This same thing happened with my buddy's pivot firebird. Some linkages put too much stress on coil shocks and can result in failure...and the manufacturer might not know it as failure can take a long time and/or be rare.

 @FuzzyL: Disagree - it is 100% the responsibility of the frame manufacture specing those components to qualify them and ensure they are compatible with their bike design. This issue has been known for quite some time and impacts a number of frames on the market.

 This frame doesn't use a yoke at all.

 So, why is the problem only with the Fox coil shock and not with the air, and with SD Coil anyway???

 @cxfahrer: Air springs gives you 2 more points of support (seals & glide rings) to keep everything in line.

As to RS coil, possibly because the shaft is bigger than the Fox?

 @cxfahrer: It's not the coil shock causing the problem, it's just that the air shock is stronger and can take the hits. I would stay away from this frame, as it will probably cause premature wear on the air shocks, even if they don't fail catastrophically.

See this video, it breaks it down. youtu.be/I9Lpxj9zVis

 @physics-photographer:
But I ride my Capra now for 4 years with the SD Coil.
Also there seems to be no problem with the Fox coil shock and the 2019 Ltd Capra.

So why now with this shock only?

 @cxfahrer:
The previous model didn't have the extended yoke design

 @silvanoe: this is the shred model which is the mkii frame not the new mkiii with the yoke. Same frame as the ltd.

 @Ttimer: but this frame does mount the shock to the end of the seatstays rather than the ends of the link. Typically stays can twist out of alignment more than the short links. Don't know for sure, but that may be part of the issue here.

 @cxfahrer: new DHX2 has a thin shaft, and to top it off, hollow inside.

 @cxfahrer: Been riding a Fox DHX2 coil for nearly 4 years on a 7 year old carbon Capra but that frame was somewhat different/more progressive

 @ohio: That is quite possible. The link is very close to the seatstay brace but away from the shock mount. Still, this is not a yoke and the stresses it could put on the shock are of a different kind (twisting rather than bending).

 Nope, it was the original Ohlins STX 22 design. Ohlins got it wrong but the revised service seal kit solved the problem. I have one I bought used and it's been leak free. Can't say the same for the RS it came with

 This design doesn't use any of the things Steve said were bad (trunion or yoke). What is it about this bike that's eating shocks?

 Seems like this frame is a good candidate for spherical bearings, whether the air shock can tolerate the misalignment or not. Should be a major upgrade in durability and reduced friction for whatever shock someone is running. Thankfully this frame doesn't run a trunion mount.

 @mattg95: trunnions and yokes aren't the only contributors to premature failure - a very flexy or misaligned rear end can have similar effects. We have seen plenty of failures of various descriptions (eg air sleeves burping under side loading) on frames using this extended-seatstay design in the past, but it's much harder to generalize about those because if the rear ends are built stiff enough that the misalignment can be tolerated by the eyelets, these problems don't necessarily occur out of proportion to the general frame population (likewise, trunnion frames that are well aligned and sufficiently stiff are not necessarily too hard on shocks, but in our experience these are pretty rare). @ohio is correct that sphericals would solve the issue here.

The extended-seatstay setup does mean that under hard side loading of the rear end, the rear/lower eyelet of the shock is rotated one way (for example, clockwise if you're looking down at it from the rider's perspective) whilst being translated in the direction that naturally tries to oppose that (in this case, to the right as viewed from the rider's perspective), which effectively adds to the rotational load on the shock. If that displacement/rotation is significant it can be very hard on the shocks in spite of the eyelets being more tolerant of misalignment than say trunnion.

However, with all that said, given the particular shock, it may not be entirely or unduly the frame's fault either.

 The same thing happened to me last summer, and like everyone on MTBR’s Capra LTD thread. How in the world is that bike not included?

 @yoitsrobj: mines been fine and wasnt mentioned in the service. Had a new damper rod due too pitting though.
Id rather keep the coil tbh. I have had the whole rear end warrantied too as it cracked.

 I also had to get the DHX2 repaired on my LTD pretty early on by Fox for $$. Didn't realize the issue was pervasive with the Capra and coils

 WELLLL just got off the phone (and email) with YT and they claim despite all the failures the people with LTDs had and the fact that this is essentially the same bike with the same issues, its only a problem with the performance elite shock (b/c we all know performance elite and factory are sooooo different) so ‘nothing we can do, your bike’s fine’

 @yoitsrobj:, appreciate you sharing this...

 @yoitsrobj: Thanks for the info, that's really annoying they're pulling that move. So far the coil on my LTD has been fine but probably just a matter of time till it fails.

 @yoitsrobj: Are the frames the same, or could there be a difference in stiffness causing a different failure rate? Because the only difference between the 2020 Factory and Performance Elite series of those shocks are the high speed adjusters not being there on the Performance Elite shocks. Every other part is the exact same thing. On the 2021 shocks, the Performance series do have different shaft/piston/eyelet assemblies though.

 @VorsprungSuspension: Both shred and ltd are the mkii frames. Only thing, according to the marketing pitch, was that the alloy frame for the ltd didn't have visible blemishes so could be left raw. The Ltd comes with my2020 Fox suspension, shred not sure if it's 2020 or 2021.

 @VorsprungSuspension:
The SHREDS have the 2021 coil shock, so that's the difference right there.
It's clearly explained by YT, that only the combination of the 2021 DHX2 with the CAPRA MK2 AL frame is the issue.
The CAPRA LTD from 2018 & 2019 use the older DHX2 shock and are not affected. (there might be some, that failed, but not for the same reasons and in the same amount as with the SHRED Models)

 @VorsprungSuspension: Oh that’s good information. Wish they just would have just said that instead of trying to “no comment, call Fox” me when I pushed, and then when calling Fox they were just confused about the whole thing. Out of curiousity I went on the Fox site and looked at the spec diagrams and could see some of the differences. Seems like my bike with the older DHX2 is just a ‘will eat coil shocks’ vs ‘will eat coil shocks and maybe hurt you’ on the Shreds

 This! I think YT is just one of the few addressing the issue, to make sure no one is hurt, when the shock collapses while riding.

 The chainstays connect to the shock in a manner that is the same as a yoke and likely results in similar side loads.

 @chal0080: "connect to the shock in a manner that is the same"

Umm, pretty much everything non-trunnion connects to the shock in that manner... it's a bushing and a thru-bolt.

Additionally, some yokes don't have a bushing, they use a direct connection to the eyelet, because they have bearings at the other end of the yoke to allow the needed rotation. Hence why yokes increase the effective eye-to-eye.

 @chal0080: the seatsays connect to the shock, not the chainstays. It's also not the same as a yoke, the yoke rotates the shock eyelet 90 degrees

 @mattg95: seatstays, my bad for responding while eating lunch at the same time as typing.

@justinfoil: Was thinking it was the same as a yoke to the extent that the stays basically run from the rear wheel to the shock, the nature of which allows forces from the rear wheel to place a large amount of leverage directly to the shock vs. a short link attached to the seattube or top tube...

 The Frame is not the issue. It's the 2021 DHX2, that is poorly constructed. (shaft too thin, etc.)

 @chal0080: there is a short link attached to the seat tube in this instance...

Though I think you have something with the long stays directly connected to the shock, and that short link not doing enough to stabilize the shock-end of the stays, causing some side loading, but it's very different than a yoke. Even with the long stays, the shock is still mounted on a bushing on the stay end. Yokes are directly connected to the shock, effectively extending the eye-to-eye length, and if the shock doesn't have enough bushing overlap (and that also depends on shaft diameter to an extent), to account for that extra length, it can cause issues even if the frame is stiff enough to drive the shock in perfectly straight lines.

 the previous generation stumpjumpers are terrible for this. Not sure about the new ones. Known multiple people who need to keep a second shock ready for when the lateral forces inevitably have their way every season

 @DoubleCrownAddict: hey! you ever gonna respond to my message?

 Also, not all coil shocks are created equal in regards to lateral stiffness. For example the Push elevensix I think uses a 12.7mm diameter steel shaft. The 2020 DHX2's were 9 mm.

 Orbea has also given many a hard time over warranty issues. The age old-age u crashed. Nope-no crash. Look with ur eyes and your brain should process 'stress crack'. Lame

 @jrocksdh: that’s exciting to hear… not! Especially for potential customers. The thought of getting a different shock with the original purchase on an already expensive bike, isn’t the most exciting thought.

 Just because the frame is asymmetrical doesn't mean there will be side loads. Side loads come from misalignment or excessive flex causing the frame to not push the shock in a straight line. The Stumpy and Rallon designs actually use that space to the side of the shock to add bracing that should help keep the shock mounts and linkage better aligned. The yoke factor lengthening the effective eye-to-eye is another thing, though...

 @justinfoil: and I just realized that this is the previous generation, where the shock is better and holds no water bottle…

 *where the shock is in the center

 @way2manyhobbies2keep: or it possibly just postpones the failure of the air shocks, since they have larger interfaces.

 @drjohn: could be all in the interpretation, but I am saying the frame design causes sideloading of the shock.

Therefore regardless of manufacturer this increase stiction, and increases shock wear.

Wear vs failure is mostly determined by materials,overlap, and contact surface; and an air shock has more of that than a coil shock.

 My experience was you have to be a squeaky wheel to get a response from them...

 And this is neither, so...

 ...it's just a bendy bendy frame?

 That depends on the shock. If you don't have an 2021 DHX2, then you're fine.

 Yes, I was disappointed when I saw that the MK3s had yokes. Interesting that the Canyon Torque used to have yoke and was air shock only, but now does not have a yoke and has coil shocks.

 I guess it has nothing to do with frame or shock, it is just everyone on a Shred is always going sideways.

 @cxfahrer: hahaha!

 Sounds much more like a YT issue.. poorly designed frame adding a ton of side load and rotational forces.

Vorsprung actually did a recent video talking about some of this. More about trunnion shocks, but also what poor frame design can do - www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9Lpxj9zVis&t=730s

 This is 100% a YT issue.

 @islandforlife: Was coming here to post that video.

 @fullendurbro: I think it is more of a pun

 Is it not true that the latest gen of x2 have been failing as well though?

 @fullendurbro: Do you have any friends on recent Fox shocks? Everyone I know has had failures on recent Fox coils. Something changed. My 4 year old DHX2 is working great and has never even had new seals let alone full service.

 @fullendurbro:
No, it's not. All other coil shocks work fine with the frame. It's the 2021 FOX DHX2 Coil shock that causes the issue. (thin shaft, etc.)