The Actual Weights of 15 World Cup DH Race Bikes

 that's been done, i think.

 It's enduro, it would be a spreadsheet and then two days later pics of the bikes

 ~37lbs

m.pinkbike.com/news/enduro-world-cup-bike-weigh-in-courtesy-of-edbull-media-house.html

 @bikehard11, you will - there's one on the way.

 @jdejace: What's crazy is that those enduro rigs are only 1-2 lb less than DH bikes...

 @cool3: exactly why I'm curious about them..

 @cool3: what's crazy? Save ~300g with a Fox 38 instead of the dual crown, but add a dropper and big cassette so basically a wash. Maybe an air shock based on preference, maybe a pound in the frame. Otherwise they're running similar components at that level. The DH guys often add a little ballast but they're not carrying water bottles either.

 @cool3: I would expect an Enduro bike to weigh similar. They have bigger cassettes, dropper posts, the same tyres but smaller forks.

 www.pinkbike.com/news/actual-weights-18-enduro-world-cup-bikes.html

 These dudes are all missing out... They need to strap another 20 lbs or so on their bike cause every E-biker tells me their 60 lb electric bike rides and descends better than their regular mountain bike...

 @stiingya: Yes, but the same dudes also claim an ebike gets them fitter than a normal bike. They delude themselves. I rarely find an ebiker that I'd say is particularly fit. So I'm not sure I'd rely on their opinions.

 @cool3: Wait are you saying that people with motors attached to their bikes climb faster than people without motors attached to their bikes?

 @stiingya: ride better is subjective depending what criteria you look at. The ebikes no doubt are gonna get you up the hill faster, and down all that extra mass just keeps the thing stuck to the floor and soaks up bumps much easier than a regular bike with a lot more comfort. These are things I can't deny, how do I know? Because I don't have an ebike, I have a Yeti Sb165 with push 11.6, smashpot, inserts, fast sc4 damper in the fork and it still doesn't go up as fast or roll over stuff as smoothly as my mates cheapo £2900 alloy ebike with shit geometry and 2.8 tyres he bought from Halfords, an auto parts store. However agility wise there is no contest, what you gain in supplements from that extra weight bites back in the corners and you can feel the extra weight when changing direction, there are nowhere near as agile and I'm sure at ridiculous pace a normal bike will no doubt get to the bottom faster because of it. It's like comparing a dragster to an f1 car, the dragster might spank the f1 in straight line but soon as there is any corners it's a different story. I will however also say that the gains to be had from the motor going uphill and the extra steam rolling ability from the weight do probably make ebikes a much better fit for your average rider, they are easier to ride full stop. If I was racing dh tracks I would pick the regular bike but for just doing fast laps at your local trail centre an ebike will get you round faster and in more comfort. I say this not even owning an ebike, I'm not against ebikes but I personally don't class them as bicycles, they are more like low powered motorbikes, you are assisting the motor more than it 'assists' you, you basically ally are just spinning the cranks with your feet to get past the throttle restriction. Those things take literally no effort at all to pedal and those that say they do must be seriously unfit or forgot how a regular bike is to pedal uphill.

 @Danzzz88: Well, we can ask ebiker's posting about how their heavy ebike rides and descends better than their regular bike and tell them they need to make sure to list what criteria they are basing their judgment on so their comments can be correctly perceived.

But until they do that I'm just going to have to make my comments general the way they generally make their comments. I'm not against ebikes, I'm against BS! And if a 60lb bike was an advantage when descending then we'd see most enduro and downhill race bikes hover around 60lbs. BUT, we don't...

Sure we see some riders attach weight to specific parts of their frames sometimes to tune specific ride characteristics. And "maybe" a couple just to make a really light bike a little heavier?? (we assume that's why because most of the time we only have a picture of a weight on a bike and no explanation. But obviously, a bike can be too light for the intended purpose too!)

But since the proliferation of ebikes we have not seen gravity-biased race mountain bikes as a whole being made EXTRA heavy just to be EXTRA heavy... So hitting that 55+ pound weight in itself does not seem to be an advantage while descending contrary to many ebiker comments = BS!

 @stiingya: have you ridden an ebike? Like I say the increased weight helps steamroller over technical features, they smooth out the trail because the frames mass counteracts some of the force acting on the suspension from bumps rather than the force going straight to your feet and hands to oppose the force. But that same weight makes them less agile. You have to think most people that ride bikes don't absolutely rip and push the bikes to the limit, so having a heavy ass bike that smooths out the trail better whilst not reaching ridiculous speeds in the corners is going to make them feel the bike descends better because at the speeds a lot of them are going it probably does descend better, but when you are hitting race paces or a competent rider that us when the lighter regular bikes are going to creep away from the ebikes in the corners. Ebikes do feel heavy to turn, you can feel it instantly just trying one in the street but if you haven't tried one I suggest you try to just to see how different they feel to ride, they are quite a lot different tbh firstly because of the motor and second because of the weight, they don't just feel like a regular bike but a little easier to pedal, they feel like something between a regular bike and low powered moto.

 @Danzzz88: But if it was just weight creating an advantage to your suspension we'd see the results skewed towards heavier riders on the podium and we don't. I can't think of someone adding extra weight to their fork or swingarm to create suspension action that counteracted bump force? So it may "feel different" on a heavier e-bike, but if it was an advantage we'd see racers using it.

I've only ridden a cheap rental e-hardtail at an RV campsite that had a super crappy front fork with little travel and no real dampening. So there was no competitive advantage in that suspension!! BUT, it was a blast riding that thing around, it was private land so we went off the sides of the trails like other people were doing and rode berm quarter pipe rides that we would not have sessioned so long on a regular mountain bike. It felt SUPER fast!!! Like a BMX rocket and a lot of fun, no doubt. But "better" than my mountain bikes??? No!

Course, I've NOT ridden a high-end 15 thousand-dollar full suspension e-bike and so for sure, you make a good point that at that level I would have a whole different experience. BUT, that doesn't change that we have NOT seen a max adoption of EXTRA heavy race bikes since e-bikes have become common. Or since sponsors have made their racers also ride their e-bikes for Instagram, etc. So there must not be any real descending advantage to a 55-60 lb mountain bike...?

We wouldn't have endurance racers sleeping on the dirt in a poncho and hoping they find a water source along the way to use their survival straw if it was more advantageous for their riding performance to just carry the extra weight on their bike in the first place!

 @stiingya: that's why I'm saying the performance is subjective because what you gain in suspension feel on the heavier bike becomes a negative in the corners losing agility. To answer your point about heavier riders suspension would work better, the point is the increased weight in the frame not the rider. The heavier frame acts as a dead weight if you will to oppose some of the spring force when going over a bump, force = mass x acceleration, if you increase the mass of the frame, for the same force on the trail it won't accelerate as quickly towards you therefore not transmitting as much shock through the pedals and handlebars to the rider. Look up sprung vs unsprung mass affects on suspension on google or youtube. I'm sure if you ever get chance to ride an ebike though then you will most certainly see what the difference is, they feel very different.

 @Danzzz88: Yes, I know there is a difference between sprung and unsprung weight. But if adding 20-30 lbs of bike weight was some kind of suspension revolution then adding an extra ounce (or whatever amount of weight it would require), of weight to your fork and tweaking the suspension could create a similar feel. So why isn't that a common tool in the race kit? And there is still overall mass to contend with so the heavier rider comment isn't totally off base. An e-bike is generally overbuilt compared to another comparitive mountain bike EVERYWHERE. A good ebike is designed as a system so there is both an increase in sprung and unsprung weight.

The only thing you seem to be describing as "better" is creating traction?? (ground hugging suspension) And for sure we do see racers add frame weight and sometimes it's captioned about increasing traction. AND, I've seen people talk about heavier tire weight adding traction?? (don't know if that's true, but I've seen it mentioned) BUT, they aren't making 55-60 lb bikes to do that...

SO... I'm not really seeing the point?? When I unload my bike after getting to camp and resting and then go for a ride I'm not like GAWD my suspension SUCKS NOW...

I'm like GAWD my bike rides so much better after unpacking all that HEAVY crap...

 @pmhobson: I should have been clear about the "down", obviously. I am not an e-bike fanboy, but several of my friends bought one to save waiting time at the chairlift and they're accomplished bikers able to climb as fast as me on a "regular" bike and go down a lot faster. So, as much as I'm not promoting e-bikes, I have to admit they're not just for fat-ass/lazy guys.

 Looks even better in person. I just stood there and stared at it until it got weird with the dudes in the pits. Was not at the team tent, I think it was at suspension tent.

 i think i read it realy expensive though, but i still wonder if they could do a badass enduroframe based on the dh.

 That bike is pure filth. I want one badly.

 Totally agree, I would love a Gamux,eyes closed choice. Then the FW steel bike would be my second choice. The frameset is just over 6500 euro,a few more bucks than my full Demo hehehe. It is not a cheap bike,but for something made in EU is not so bad.

 no they only thought it would. my scream with shiver (in gold) never weighted sub 21 kg -even with the 66 it was above 20 kg

 Zerode would like to see a decomposition of rotating mass and static mass, unsprung weight and sprung weight between their bikes and those of competitors. Static weight is really sensible information for those who don't spin their wheels.

 Nah, not even close. My Scream was 56lb with Monster T's. Shivers are about 4lbs lighter than Monsters so the Zerode is still coming in well under what any properly specced Scream would be

 @lacuna: did you have doublewides as well?

 @mior: Azonic Outlaws

 @lacuna: rad

 The steel 4130 Contra weighs in right about at the middle as well. My friends were surprised when my steel Cotic weighed 1-2 lbs less than their aluminum rigs. It probably has something to do with the amount of materials used for required strength/stress.

 Carbon offers no weight advantage for gravity bikes. You can still argue some stiffness characteristic things.

 @SickEdit: You can also argue some compliance characteristic things. Santa Cruz has a video of a machine flexing their frame that's interesting to see.

 If your frame needs to be strong enough to survive an entire season of DH racing, there's honestly not that much in it between carbon and aluminum.

It's just that somehow the bike industry marketing has convinced lots of people that "carbon" means "performance" and automatically justifies a much higher price. But outside of being able to hit very low weight targets on road and XC bikes, duroplastic fibre composites aren't actually that great of a material to build bicycle frames from.

 Actually I think some brands make their carbon frames weaker in order to distinguish the weight so they're marketable as high end frames. Specialized has a lower max weight limit for carbon frames and components compared to aluminium.

 @STARBURSTTUNA: High end steels bike tubes often have a higher strength per unit mass than typical aluminium used in frames. What used to make them heavier was the minimum wall thickness required to prevent dents limiting the diameter of the tubes and resulting in tubes that were stronger than necessary. With modern bikes being longer the frames need stronger tubes and so this is less of a factor now and weights are similar between steel, aluminium and carbon.

 I'm delighted to see steel & aluminium bikes being just as light (if not lighter) than carbon. The whole marketing BS with carbon being better/stiffer needs to stop.
Plus carbon is plastic... not so nature friendly.
Steel & aluminium are recyclable.

 @SickEdit: Not totally true. Aside from better alignment properties, Neko's carbon rear end of the Frameworks DH is about 800g lighter than the aluminum version while retaining similar ride & stiffness characteristics. That is not insignificant.

 @ka-brap: 800g of weight savings in the rear end by switching to carbon from aluminium is very unlikely - to the point of being implausible. Either this isn't true, or it is true but then the aluminium rear end must have been extremely overbuilt.

Also, getting good alignment on aluminium frames really isn't as difficult as some people make it out to be. And on top of that, good alignment absolutely isn't guaranteed on carbon frames. They're largely manufactured by hand, the individual sheets of prepreg, thread inserts, vacuum bags, mold cores, etc. are manually applied, and as such the manufacturing process is prone to inconsistency. As a result, cheaply made carbon frames can be warped, misaligned, flex unevenly, have weak spots or delamination due to poor resin penetration or air bubbles, etc.

Just listen to the last PB podcast with Jesse Melamed. He mentions having two Canyon Strife race bikes that for all intents and pruposes were supposed to be identical, but one of the two rode like absolute garbage because the (carbon) frame was misaligned and slightly warped.

 @Muscovir: Here's your explanation from the man himself:
www.pinkbike.com/news/video-neko-mulally-shares-the-details-on-the-development-of-a-carbon-rear-triangle.html

Yes, the alu version was overbuilt, but to save 800g by going to carbon and retaining the ride qualities of the "overbuilt" alu version is again not insignificant.

 @Muscovir: absolutely right about the manufacturing causing misalignment and problems, but all that is an issue with aluminum as well, with the addition of welding and heat treat. Some could argue that it is easier to be consistent layering strips of carbon fiber into a mold than it is to weld a frame in a jig, what if the jig is messed up?

 Me 2

 That was exactly my reaction.

 not that it means anything but i find inserts the most valuable on hardtails so you can drop a few psi be safe and dont have to run dh tires. For the average guy modern endurocasings are plenty strong -# finale ligure guy enters the chat an rants about even dh tires not beeing strong enough.

 @bdr2k5: was touched on in another thread/article somewhere (maybe in the Hardline bike check?). for pros in a race, their run is done if they lose air, insert or not. most seem to prefer the feel of an "insertless" tire, some also find the added weight isn't warranted. They also have the benefit of being able to replace wheels and tires "on demand" during practice and training.

the benefits are still there for people who don't race and don't have access to immediate and unlimited wheel building services.

 because they got like 10 sets of wheels in the van. When you change a tyre and see chunks out of the insert instead of the rim you know its needed.

 Rolling speed on the motorway section is my bet.

 My guess is that the tires have evolved since the first generations of inserts and the riders don't feel like they need them anymore. I remember when 1200g was a Dh Tire. Now many are approaching 1500g. Yes i know we've gone from predominantly 27.5 to 29 but tire weights seem to have jumped quite a lot across the board.

 Because for DH racing, inserts just don't make any sense. If you get a puncture, your race run is over regardless if you have inserts or not. With an insert, you might still be able to roll down to the finish line, but once you lose air pressure in your tires, you're not in contention for the win anymore. So why run an insert in the first place? At that point, it's just dead weight (- in the worst possible place of your entire bike).

 @Trudeez: 1200g DH casing tires were in the era of 26"... 29" tires are bigger. and heavier.

 It´s only a snapshot of this particular race track.
Racer will adjust their components to different tracks and Leogang isn´t exactly the type of track to kill tires. It does require the least rolling resistance possible though, which leads to most riders overinflating their tires slightly, compared to what they´d usually ride. In doing so, they end up with an additional safety margin on a track that really doesn´t require any in the first place, hence why in this case inserts are not that prevalent.
The same bikecheck in fort william likely would have turned out a bit different.

 Maybe the track do not need that safety measure to finish a race run. I do not like how the front wheel reacts with inserts,for the rear wheel is OK,but the front one is a big no for me,cos tire would react different and track worst the terrain. For my 65 kg a Michelin DH 22 in the front,no insert is good,impossible to flat. For the rear tire I can use whatever DH tire non Michelin,cos the if tire is very hard it is very uncomfortable with tire insert. I like the Butcher DH t9 cos it is cheap,soft and easy to find.

 Most racers dont like the feel of inserts, they generally make the bike slower and less compliant (there are some that would say this isnt true, but the evidence from the best in the world is they are not needed).

 They deaden the feel from your tires, which are the first part of your suspension. They also are unnecessary when you run DH casings. Got rid of inserts on all my bikes, swapped for double down casings and never get flats. Even running 20-24 psi in the bike park.

 @thatguyzack: Just look at racing, the more rolling resistance plays a role the more you need it (few dh racers run em, almost all xc racers do). A Vittoria Mezcal with 19psi and an Insert is one hell of a xc-tire. You will never get that speed with a DD tire. Furthermore hardcompound xc tires with thin carcasses are often quite pingy and vibrate a lot, deadening this sensation is a plus. Running suspension without damping is almost never a good thing. DD od DH tires are a lot more damped on their own.

 Not necessarily a bad look, just not a good look either. TBF the bike they're riding is way deep in the prototype stage that the current comparable demo would be way off weight.

 same lol

 Eh. These things only have to "last" one run, they can skimp on inserts or super beefy rims, other heavy versions of items. Privateers need to be abused for life.

 @mrbrighteyes: My Spire is 37 pounds with a coil and DH casing tires. It's a bit funny how close the weights are but then again it's amazing what bikes can take these days so not really complaining.

 Also big cassette, long cage derailleur, bottle cage+bolts, there are quite a few areas where DH bikes can actually be lighter than Enduro bikes (though my Furious is massively heavy... need to get an accurate measurement...)

 @TommyNunchuck But it also has a big cassette and a dropper, so that at least partially explains the weight compared to DH bikes. The 141 is chonky though, there's no denying that. Mine is 16kg with pedals in the fairly "light" stock setup (air shock, pike, supertrail casings, no inserts, trailwide wheels, size P2).

 My Starling Murmur is in the same ball park. It's got coils both ends and proper tyres.

 Mine is about 34 lbs with trail tires, air shock, and no inserts. I run a long dropper and the big cassette too. At that weight I can ride it pretty much however I want and don't have to worry about breaking anything. I take it to lift serviced parks, its a burly bike.

 Not everyone seems to agree they're a good idea. The tire insert manufacturers do say it is a good idea. However the rim manufacturers don't make rims strong enough to handle the axial loads pushing the tire beads apart and suggest you run higher pressures and/or stronger tires. The tire manufacturers agree or disagree, depending on whether they make tire inserts themselves. So yeah, it has been investigated a few months ago and the interviews have been documented here on Pinkbike. In short, tire inserts are a good idea or they aren't a good idea. You have been warned!

 @vinay: Magic, spit, and marketing. What all bike and component manufacturers are made of.

 @vinay: yeah, I ran one in the rear for a while. Enjoyed the squirm it seemed to eliminate, don’t generally get pinch flats on EXO+ either so no difference there. Just an absolute PITA if I left it too long to refresh the sealant. Fighting with it trailside after a tear was enough to give it up.

 Aaron, Seth and Mikey

 Can someone explain why

 Four years ago everyone was on the insert bandwagon (myself included). Now I think the romance is largely over and they are acknowledged to have their use cases but also acknowledged that there are downsides. I do think tire tech has improved some (new Continentals) but just like volume spacers aren't always the answer for a fork, inserts aren't always for racers as it can change the way the tire feels quite a lot. They are great for people that want to be able to ride out on a flat and great for some enduro racers where a legit flat is race over.

I've switched to just DH casing tires and feel they are easier to pedal and offer acceptable levels of flat protection.

 You should manage all of the teams in order get them these specific sponsors.

 @noodlewitnosteeze: I would be sonoissed if I had to ride with lead weights becuse of sponsors.
My steel Marino with 250x75 EXT and Fox 49 weighs 18kg.

 @noodlewitnosteeze: *so pissed

 @joni0001984: Do you race World Cups?

 More likely to be properly aligned when you're mass producing them in Asia.

 You still need to maneuver the thing... I don't know if light was what I was thinking, but these are still all a few lbs more than I would have guessed, especially with no inserts.